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A Lost Generation of Job Seekers?
E-Commerce Times ^ | October 28, 2002 | Peter Coy, Michelle Conlin & Emily Thornton

Posted on 10/28/2002 12:17:35 PM PST by Willie Green

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To: fogarty
A point well taken, and deserves repeating. Whoever is blessed enough to have a job in this current economy is a fool if they aren't socking away every extra dollar they make.

Actually, this is the WORST thing for everyone to do. It guarantees a downward spiral (the "Paradox of Thrift"). Right now people should be digging into savings and taking on debt to buy things in anticipation of better times ahead.

Unfortunately, during the go-go, cocaine powered Clinton years, NO ONE saved like they should have. During the years of above average economic growth, debt of all kinds went up. Everyone gambled their money in the stock market. It was ridiculous. My wife's decorator was daytrading, for crying out loud!?! One time, she mentioned a highflying tech stock she bought and I decided to see how much research she'd done. PE? Didn't know. Competitors? Didn't know. Market share? Didn't know. Apparently, the stock chart showed a "cup and handle" pattern which gave a buy signal. Of course, she's blown all her gains and lost most of her principal since the bubble burst.

41 posted on 10/28/2002 7:44:12 PM PST by mikegi
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To: mikegi
Gimme a break. You're encouraging people to go into debt? In times such as this? What you're saying is typical of wall street hucksters and money-grubbers...."keep building up that credit card debt", "don't worry about being good stewards of your families' finances", "keep right on spending."

I've had enough of this financial drivel that passes for patriotism. The wise ones are storing away their grain for future storms on the horizon. You'd best do likewise, else you're gonna be like the proverbial grasshopper.

42 posted on 10/28/2002 8:25:21 PM PST by fogarty
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To: SoDak
Actually, I never heard of Dave Ramsey. I just am following my father's advice passed down from his dad. Those who are wise store up grain during good times AND bad - because bad times have a tendency to get worse.
43 posted on 10/28/2002 8:27:53 PM PST by fogarty
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To: fogarty
I heard the same thing from my dad, but it's sort of a lost wisdom these days. My dad was a tight Norwegian farmer, and hated nothing more than debt. He told me never to borrow a dime, unless it was for a house. Dave Ramsey has a nationally syndicated radio show, and essentially offers the same advice.
44 posted on 10/28/2002 8:43:23 PM PST by SoDak
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To: Willie Green
The magic formula: spend less than one makes.

Trajan88; TAMU Class of '88; Law Hall (may it R.I.P.) Ramp 9 Mule; f.u.p.

45 posted on 10/28/2002 8:52:29 PM PST by Trajan88
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To: mikegi
The Paradox of Thrift has been removed from the newest editions of Dr. Samuelson's Economics. It is a Keynsian theory that even the Keynsians have discarded.
46 posted on 10/28/2002 9:37:34 PM PST by Lee_Atwater
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To: Trajan88
Amen! Too many Americans live beyond their means. The wiser folks have been saving all along and are even now putting away funds for the future.

Going into debt now is foolish and at this point in time, nearly suicidal.

47 posted on 10/29/2002 6:03:19 AM PST by fogarty
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To: waterstraat
"There will be no revolution..."

IMHO, a revolution is unavoidable unless big-time changes are made ASAP. Loss of jobs and wealth to other countries is only one factor in the growing discontent in this nation, but it's a big one. It's not quite "haves" and "have nots" yet, but when more people find their jobs outsourced in order to keep fewer and fewer investors happy, that's a recipe for disaster. Hopefully it won't come to that, but I don't see much to be optimistic about.

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

48 posted on 10/29/2002 6:59:32 AM PST by wku man
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To: waterstraat
"There will be no revolution..."

IMHO, a revolution is unavoidable unless big-time changes are made ASAP. Loss of jobs and wealth to other countries is only one factor in the growing discontent in this nation, but it's a big one. It's not quite "haves" and "have nots" yet, but when more people find their jobs outsourced in order to keep fewer and fewer investors happy, that's a recipe for disaster. Hopefully it won't come to that, but I don't see much to be optimistic about.

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

49 posted on 10/29/2002 6:59:58 AM PST by wku man
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To: waterstraat
"There will be no revolution..."

IMHO, a revolution is unavoidable unless big-time changes are made ASAP. Loss of jobs and wealth to other countries is only one factor in the growing discontent in this nation, but it's a big one. It's not quite "haves" and "have nots" yet, but when more people find their jobs outsourced in order to keep fewer and fewer investors happy, that's a recipe for disaster. Hopefully it won't come to that, but I don't see much to be optimistic about.

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

50 posted on 10/29/2002 6:59:59 AM PST by wku man
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To: wku man
Sorry about the multiple post...slow server+impatient poster+multiple clicks on the Post button=embarrassed Freeper.

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

51 posted on 10/29/2002 7:01:27 AM PST by wku man
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To: fogarty
I have a steady job, and my wife and I are putting away a 9-12 month supply of cash in a separate savings account.

That's a good thing ... I was out for 8 months ... luckily I had about 8 months worth of savings and JUST made it thru. The stock market crash completely wiped out the 401K BUT I still have my house equity. BUT if I get laid off again before I can resave that 8 months safety money, which doesn't happen over night ... I'll be picking out that sweet spot the live in ... under the bridge. In 25 years of engineering .... I have NEVER seen it anywhere near as bad as now. That means since the late 70's thru the 80's and the 90's. I took a job that is only distantly related to my disipline and took a 25% pay cut to boot. Luckily the kids are gone and the cars are paid for ... the're getting old though (200,000 miles on one) but the payment is right. I would hate to think about how it would be if I still had a couple of kids at home and a car payment. Problem is that the retirement money is now gone and companies DO NOT HIRE people over 50 (except MAYBE McDonalds). I have to face the fact that I am in my last good paying job and make to best of it.

52 posted on 10/29/2002 7:15:41 AM PST by clamper1797
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To: wku man
" . . . when more people find their jobs outsourced in order to keep fewer and fewer investors happy."

I don't know about the "fewer and fewer investors." I read recently that the majority of stocks are held by pension funds. (If I recall correctly, the book was Peter Drucker's Post-Capitalist Society) If that is the case, than we have the paradox that while people's careers are foundering, at least their pension funds should be doing well. But they are doing well precisely because the companies are able to maintain or improve profitability by reducing their cost of input. Unfortunately this means exporting our manufacturing jobs.

So, while an American worker's buying power diminishes (because salaries are not keeping pace with cost of living increases), his mutual funds, 401K, and pension fund should be doing pretty well. And because his buying power is shrinking, he is forced to buy cheaper, foreign-produced goods, rather than spend the few extra dollars to "but American", if, indeed, that option is even offered. So it's a vicious cycle, mollified only slightly by the hope that American-owned companies (and their American investors) will prosper. Thus, the pension funds, at least, are secure.

Of course, you've got to actually have a job in order to have a pension fund.

53 posted on 10/29/2002 7:29:06 AM PST by Goetz_von_Berlichingen
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To: SamAdams76

A company employs 100 people who make an average of $40,000 a year to sell a widget that retails for $100. The company sells 100,000 of these widgets a year. That's an annual payroll of $4,000,000 a year but the consumers have to pay a total of $10,000,000 for these 100,000 widgets.

Now the company moves the factory overseas to take advantage of lower labor costs and that widget now retails for just $40. So while $4,000,000 a year in local income is lost, consumers now have an extra $6,000,000 in their pockets to spend on other things because they are paying 60% less for these widgets. That extra $6,000,000 a year could be used in local restaurants, home improvements (putting contractors to work) or to buy boats (putting more boatmakers to work).

The company is not going to retail the widget for $40 after the move. They will retail the widget for $105, "in order to pay for costs associate with relocation of operations." The difference in labor costs between the M$ 4 of U.S. based operations and the (unspecified but lower) foreign based operations will go directly into the corporate executives' pockets.

True, the executives will then spend that money on marble toilets and private jets. Meanwhile, though, the 100 people are not spending any money because they don't have any to spend.

My God, I'm sounding like a Democrat here. Still, I don't see how the above scenario could be defended as a good thing to happen.

54 posted on 10/29/2002 7:30:37 AM PST by Chemist_Geek
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To: wideawake
They made 120K in one year, apparently have no children, their rent is only 12K a year and they're taking food from charity? How infantile are these overgrown children? What exactly did they blow their money on? Food, clothes and trips? Are they sorority girls fresh out of college? I really have no sympathy.

Yeah no sh!t. As a grad student I make "poverty"-level wages but I ain't starved to death yet-- one makes the concessions. 35k is alot of money, to ME. Hell I could move out of the $300/mo apartment and get a $400/mo apartment-- I could get Kraft mac and cheese instead of generic... I could even replace my running shoes more than once a year...

You're right, wide, these folks were (are) dumbasses and they brought (are bringing) their economic "hardships" on themselves... Some of us know how to live Spartan... Blows my mind that they beg their parents for rent money...

55 posted on 10/29/2002 7:41:49 AM PST by maxwell
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To: Willie Green
The 20-to-44 group has other woes to contend with, too. Age-discrimination rules, by shielding older workers, may end up disproportionately exposing younger ones to layoffs.

I stopped reading right there. Age-discrimination laws are ignored with impunity. The government won't side with you unless you're an official minority, and companies know that even with losing a class-action suit, their expenses are less than keeping the old farts on board.

This is based on the widely-held belief that only management means anything, and there are always younger folks, or overseas outsourcing, to do the dirty work, and still be disposable. Who wants a twnety-something fast-track VP to have to deal with a 55-year-old worker who has lived and breathed his job for 35 years?

56 posted on 10/29/2002 8:03:16 AM PST by 300winmag
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To: Lee_Atwater; mikegi
Exactly. Saving is nothing other than investment, i.e. an allocation of capital.

Putting cash in your mattress hurts the economy, certainly. Putting your money into financial instruments such as bonds, CMOs, etc. strengthens the general economy as well as your own portfolio.

Consumer spending for the sake of consumer spending depletes invested capital and creates a negative return. It discourages companies from developing new products and increases the real cost of capital for all borrowers.

57 posted on 10/29/2002 8:07:45 AM PST by wideawake
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To: Mini-14
I am a bit harsh, yes. But not unfair. They are indeed working, and not asking for my help, but:

Today, they get bags of groceries from a San Jose food bank...

They're cooking for themselves now, which is a start, but they don't need the food handout. (The "lavish trips" in their recent past says to me that they don't have kids.) You can eat, and eat well, cooking for yourself on less than $50 a month per person.

...have joined the ranks of the uninsured...

My taxes pay for any emergency care they would need for a car accident, etc.

...and beg their parents for $1,045 in rent for their 600-square-foot apartment.

30 and 35 years old and hitting up the folks for rent? My eyes are rolling so far in the back of my head that I can't even see.

58 posted on 10/29/2002 8:12:53 AM PST by jiggyboy
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To: mikegi
No. NFW. You gotta look out for yourself; you have no obligation to "help the economy". Taking on debt in this environment is nothing more than a crap shoot. You're betting that the money you make in the next five years (e.g., car loan) is best spent on a fancy new car rather than making your mortgage payment and eating for six months while you are looking for a new job.
59 posted on 10/29/2002 8:20:58 AM PST by jiggyboy
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To: jiggyboy
I don't know which is more annoying, these disgraced yuppies mewling about having to cook their own food, or the old goats I deal with who treat me like I'm an idiot because both I and my wife have to work to support our modest household. "I supported three kids on my salary, and my wife stayed home to raise 'em," I hear, as though I flunked some elementary responsibility course back in the '80s. I try to point out that times have changed - that my son's private school (an essential expense due to the failed public schools)probably costs more per month than his mortgage, and that the price of matters like insurance, cars, home costs, etc. are off the chart when compared to the 1960s. But all forays into reality fall on deaf ears.
60 posted on 10/29/2002 8:22:58 AM PST by Basil Duke
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