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Brutal tactics belie Chechen cause (you couldn’t pick a worse enemy than Chechens)
Irish Independent ^ | 10/28/02 | Alan Philps

Posted on 10/28/2002 8:26:21 AM PST by dead

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To: Tuor
I have a good friend that is from Chechnya; the Russians are as vicious and intentionally target civilians at least as much as the Chechens do.
21 posted on 10/28/2002 9:31:17 AM PST by Free the USA
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: dead
This ranks up there with 10 foot tall Afghans,the mother of all battles, and Islam is a religion of peace!

Danger Finder said "Chechnya is a self-proclaimed republic in Russia with a population of 950,000 people lying just to the east of the principal road crossing the central Caucasus, ranging from the plains and foothills into the alpine highlands.


Its neighbors are Dagestan to the east, the Turkic-speaking Kumyk people of Russia to the north, the Ingush to the west and the southern Ossetians and Georgians to the south. Grozny is the largest city and capital with an official peacetime population of about 400,000, depending on how severely it's getting pounded at any given moment.

After they were repatriated by Kruschev in the 50's the Chechens, hardened and without any means of earning a living, set about forming the largest criminal gangs in the former Soviet Union.

The Chechens were as far from the Marxist, there-is-no-God, one-size-fits-all Soviet model as a people could be. Why? First, Chechens aren't even Chechen (they are Nuokhchi, or sons of Noah); they speak a unique language- Nakh; they are Muslim.

More importantly they have kept their national identity intact. Chechen loyalties are to one of the more than 100 teips, or clans, that constitute Chechen society, not to the fat-bottomed thieves in the Kremlin. Think of teips as similar to the city states of Athens."

From Janes "Belarus, Ukraine and the separatist Trans-Dniester region of Moldova have all shipped arms to Chechen rebels and the Taliban despite their protestations of support for Russia’s continuing campaign with separatists and Islamic fundamentalists.

Belarus, one of the most secretive and irresponsible arms exporters, has secretly supplied arms to Chechen rebels via Turkey and Georgia.

According to both US and Israeli intelligence sources, Belarus has also turned itself into the largest supplier of lethal military equipment to the Islamic world. In the first half of 2001 Belarus exported US$500 million worth of arms to Arab, Palestinian and Albanian Muslim extremists."
23 posted on 10/28/2002 9:46:33 AM PST by ijcr
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To: habs4ever
chechen is a chechen is a chechen ping...
24 posted on 10/28/2002 9:49:10 AM PST by MarMema
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To: dead
For the Chechens, the right to their own state goes without saying, but the Kremlin refuses to let them secede from the Russian Federation.

Perhaps this author should ask some of the ethnic groups of Dagestan their opinions about the right of secession for Chechens - the ones that fought bravely in defending their villages against the brutal incursions into their land by Chechens - not once but twice. Their dead = inconsequential?

Doesn’t attempts at territorial expansion somewhat negate this 'absolute' right to secede?

25 posted on 10/28/2002 10:00:53 AM PST by Solon
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To: ExpandNATO
So Russian/Soviet atrocities are OK, while the Chechens are simply unforgiveable.

No. A decade ago, as we were coming out of the Cold War, many people were sympathetic to the Chechens, and anyone else trying to get out from under Moscow. Clinton and Albright consistently spoke up for the Chechens. And it fit with our overall policy of supporting both Turkish and Saudi foreign policy in the region. The Turks were pursuing their pan-Turkic policy, the Saudis were promoting the return to Islam in the former Soviet republics. Due to our ties and sympathies to both of them, we were prepared to support the Chechens in Russia, as well as, for example, the Uighars in China.

The Uighars are still a relatively sympathetic bunch of people, and I would like to see us continue to help them where we can. But the Chechens have burned their bridges with us, with their tactics of targeting civilians, with their ties to the same Al Qaeda groups that have targeted us. When our guys went into action in Afghanistan, they were fighting not only Arabs and Pakistanis and Pashtuns, but Chechen Al Qaeda fighters as well.

Of course, none of this happens in a vacuum. We have supported Muslim activism in general over the last decade for various reasons. In part it was out of a desire to win it over, and perhaps to use it to our benefit. In part it was due to our loyalties to the Saudis, and perhaps even in part to close business ties between some of our leaders and the Saudis, some public, and some perhaps not public.

In any case, our loyalty and support of Muslim causes has not been reciprocated. The very people we supported have targeted us, and killed our people again and again, in Africa, in Arabia, in America. So in the last year or so we have been forced to reevaluate our relationship with Muslims in general, and the Saudis in particular.

While Al Qaeda was targeting Russians and Chinese, we were quite prepared to support them, even to the point of rather shamefully ignoring attacks on Christians in Indonesia and in the Philippines. But those days are over.

The Muslims have burned their bridges with us. Their atrocities against Russian civilians, and Indian civilians, and Philipino civilians, and most especially against the US has caused us to lose the sympathy we once had. For them to attack Russia and the US at once was supreme foolishness. In the article posted, the writer tries to make their foolishness seem endearing, but there is nothing endearing about people who slaughter even their friends.

26 posted on 10/28/2002 10:11:12 AM PST by marron
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To: ItisaReligionofPeace
As the Chechens lost any hope of help from the West, their society retreated to the most brutal clan rule.

Yes, we are quite the ogres. We are responsible for hunger, poverty, crime, meaness, killing children and old people, controlling the worlds wealth to the benefit of an elite few, bad weather, and bad breath.

27 posted on 10/28/2002 10:11:28 AM PST by Mind-numbed Robot
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To: dead
"However, I must lay some of the blame on the West for abandoning the Chechens to the mercy of the Russians."

To listen to this guy you would think that the Russians would be down there raping and killing wither the Chechens were kidnapping and killing people or not? He's an idiot and probably ought to be shot along with his murderous Chechen buddies.

28 posted on 10/28/2002 10:12:41 AM PST by monday
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To: Cacique
btt
29 posted on 10/28/2002 10:21:22 AM PST by Cacique
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To: dead
"Chechnya is a great oil-producing region, and Moscow wants control of its pipelines."

I get so sick of "its all about the oil" mantra.

Certainly, petroleum has much to do with national interests. As does arable land, water, strategic location and even national pride.

But the above is a clue that the author has no clue. Because one very large Uranium deposit is in the mountans of Chechnya. If Chechnya gained independence, it would join Afghanistan as a third world Islamic ****-hole with a huge source of fissionable material; a material as valuable for fuel as it is for weapons.

30 posted on 10/28/2002 10:23:25 AM PST by Cobra Scott
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To: ExpandNATO
"Looks like FreeRepublic is turning into the Nation, all Soviet/Russian atrocities are explainable, understandable and the fault of the attacked group."

The attacked people in this case are the Russians. After Russia granted independence to Chechnya in 1995 the Chechens continued to kidnap Russians for ransom, including large scale hostage situations which killed hundreds of Russians. They attacked police stations in neighboring provences. Chechnya became an outlaw Republic where there was no law or order.

All the Chechens would have had to do to be left alone by the Russians is leave the Russians alone. Like most Islamic terrosts, they couldn't do it. Islamic terrorists are not happy unless they are killing infidels. Thats you and me and the Russians.

If these are the kind of people you support, I would say it is you who reads the Nation.

PS. The Soviet Union was dissolved in 1989. Try to keep up.

31 posted on 10/28/2002 10:29:02 AM PST by monday
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To: spetznaz
Even by the accounts of Russian soldiers, their tactics against the Chechnyan population have been very brutal. One reason Russian soldiers cite is that command authority is lax and individual units operate more or less on their own. But the Chechnyans did themselves in with the Moscow theater hostage-taking. Attacking Russians in their own capital taking hundreds of innocent civilians as hostages to be killed lost them any sympathy, particularly with the Russian people.

If they let themselves be used by al-Qaida or other terrorist Muslim groups, it was their own VERY stupid error. Few things could have been more predictable to thoroughly piss off the Russians. Now all the gloves will be off, and if they thought the Russians were tough before - just wait.

32 posted on 10/28/2002 10:35:44 AM PST by xJones
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To: Tuor
"I have supported the Chechen's attempts at freedom ever since I heard about their plight. I wish them luck in their attempts to regain their long-lost independance."

I guess it is safe to assume you will also support the Mexican seperatists when they start kidnapping US citizens for ransom and blowing up hospitals and theators in their quest for independence of the the American Southwest?

You realize that the only freedom that Chechens are fighting for is the freedom to be murdering bandits. It is not that the Russians are oppressing them anymore than any other people, its just that the Russians won't let them rob and kidnap and murder with impunity.

Oh woe is them, what a terrible plight. /sarcasm>

33 posted on 10/28/2002 10:40:22 AM PST by monday
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To: dead
What this idiot forgets to mention is that this is the second chechen war after the breakup of the USSR.

THe peace treaty signed by Lebed was thrown in the trash by the chechens as they signed on to the Saudi worldwide jihad, attacking other muslim groups in Dagestan and Ingushetia in order to create a sharia khalifa in Russia's south.

People forget there was peace until our Saudi friends raised the temperature there. He's half right but so much is missing from this article.
34 posted on 10/28/2002 10:42:47 AM PST by swarthyguy
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To: Cobra Scott
I get so sick of "its all about the oil" mantra.

You know, if the Mexicans tried to take back Texas, and we went to stop them, it would just because of all of the oil reserves in Texas...

35 posted on 10/28/2002 11:02:40 AM PST by gridlock
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To: spetznaz
Their flag, a wolf baying at the moon? Ok, bring out the wolfabane and silverbullets. As the Chechens seem to be bloodthirsty "vampires: as well, perhaps Putin can be a modern day Vlad in dealing with jihadi vermin.
36 posted on 10/28/2002 11:52:21 AM PST by sheik yerbouty
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To: r9etb
I saw a documentary the other night on the Chechnyan war. It showed footage (for the first time) of atrocities committed by the "rebel forces" that were never shown to the Russian people or their soldiers because of the horrifying brutality. They weren't even told there was a battle. The picture were unbelievable.

Parents of young Russians soldiers are terrified of their boys serving because of what will happen to them if they're captured.

One Russian soldier was interviewed at the site of a battle where the Chechnyans had murdered all surrendering Russians. He said, "If they thought we should die, they should shoot us, but cutting off body parts and then heads...". He couldn't finish. It was so sad.

Just like Kosovo, very few people even know that Chechnya is Muslim. The international press stands firmly on the side of terror.

37 posted on 10/28/2002 12:14:27 PM PST by Deb
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To: Tuor
And how 'bout that "sad plight" of them Kosovar Albanians? A real tragedy, huh?
38 posted on 10/28/2002 12:17:33 PM PST by Deb
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Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: monday
It is not that the Russians are oppressing them anymore than any other people, its just that the Russians won't let them rob and kidnap and murder with impunity.

Read some history on the subject, then come back to me when you get a clue.

Tuor

40 posted on 10/28/2002 4:20:17 PM PST by Tuor
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