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To: Hank Kerchief
Since this is not possible, the utopia, I mean, and no rational man imagines any such thing...
"The roots of transhumanist philosophy are sunk deep in the humanist movement of the 20th century. Humanists believe that humans matter, that individuals matter. We might not be perfect, but we can make things better and promote rational thinking, freedom, tolerance and democracy. Transhumanists agree with this but also emphasize what we have the potential to become. Not only can we use rational means to improve the human condition and the external world; we can also use them to improve ourselves, the human organism. And we are not limited strictly to rational means; we can use technological means that will eventually enable us to move beyond what most would describe as human." [Source]
These rational men imagine it. And there are plenty of others. The dream of perfectability is as old as the human race.

Your hallucination of "saving the West" is as unrealistic as any utopian dream, whether by a Christian conquest, or any other.

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

There will always be good, decent, rational individuals who will know how to find freedom and to live responsibly, but, most of the world is stupid, hates freedom, and just wants someone or something to take care of them, and there are always plenty of thugs around to do just that.

Freedom is not the ultimate goal of humankind. And your "good, decent, rational individuals" are only as good or decent as their devotion to the Divinely-ordained Natural Law as perceived by Reason. No man can be a law (moral or otherwise) unto himself, defining by some self-styled "rational process" Good and Evil; to think so is to participate in the ultimate hallucination, the ultimate utopian dream. "Ye shall become as gods."

Most of the big problems of the world, are men's attempts to save the world, or save the West, or save civilization. If people would mind their own business and take care of themselves, there would be no problems.

But people won't. Expecting people to act like that is a fantasy. Such thoughts do not accord with human nature. In the real world people are bent, twisted on a fundamental level, fundamentally (but not totally) depraved; they crave power for its own sake, are jealous of the success of others, wallow in Schadenfreude at the discomfiture of their enemies. People are not born minding their own business and taking care of themselves; they learn such behaviors from their parents and from the values transmitted them by their native culture: pagan culture, pagan values; materialist/hedonist culture, materialist/hedonist values; Christian culture, Christian values. Whether any given individual follows the code of Right and Wrong inculcated within them is open to question; character is defined by the choices of the given individual, but the people of a given society by their beliefs, values, and actions define their culture.

But, as I said, this will never happen, because someone always thinks they know how to save the world.

Only Jesus Christ can and will save the world. Our only choice is whether or not we want to be His friends or His enemies.

34 posted on 10/28/2002 1:08:39 PM PST by B-Chan
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To: B-Chan
These rational men imagine it.

I disagree with you that they were rational. I think you also do not believe they were rational, because you said, "And your 'good, decent, rational individuals' are only as good or decent as their devotion to the Divinely-ordained Natural Law as perceived by Reason." Why do you say they are rational? What is contrary to truth is irrational.

Only Jesus Christ can and will save the world.

If you know this, why do you get in such a big sweat over what ignorant men say? You know they aren't going to change anything.

Hank

42 posted on 10/29/2002 12:48:20 PM PST by Hank Kerchief
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