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To: archy; spetznaz; MJY1288; MP5SD
*YOU CANT BE THAT STUPID ALERT*

Let me understand your position...

[2002] Terrorists sieze a building in the heart of Moscow [The capital of the Nation] and begin a standoff with Russian Authorities.

This is first compared to (Notice no hostages killed by American forces)Iranians taking Americans from the embassy in Tehran [in 1970 something]. Thousands of Miles from The United States. The PLO taking hostages (Notice one [1] hostage killed by the Israelis)to an airstrip in Uganda [In 1960 something]. Thousands of Miles from Israel, and now....it is comparable to a sniper driving around in a car in three different states, firing shots at civilians.

One of two things happening here...

A. You really are that stupid.
B. You have a hard on for the Russians.

445 posted on 10/26/2002 4:13:44 PM PDT by VaBthang4
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To: Madcelt
ping
446 posted on 10/26/2002 4:38:19 PM PDT by VaBthang4
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To: VaBthang4; archy; MJY1288; MP5SD
Personally i think the Russians did a great job when you consider the circumstances, and comparisons to past spec-op jobs is vain at best, and at worst myopic.

The thing about spec-op jobs is that the scenarios in each event are specific and unique, which is why they are reserved for the special forces. If they were not unique and demanding of elite operatives then instead of SAS being sent to a critical situation ordinary 'Bobbies' (Brit coppers) would be sent. The situations that ask for special operatives are highly unique occurences that require highly unique operatives.

As for the Moscow situation i highly doubt any special forces team from anywhere in the world could have done any better. Not the British SAS, nor the American Delta Teams, not the Israeli Sayeret teams, and not the French GIGN. All these teams have been created for operations like the one in Moscow, and each of them have past histories of total success, partial success (and some even total failure). However criticizing a spec-op group because of a botched job is silly because the situation was one that had no place for second guessing, and most of the times the special operatives are working with time and pressure constraints.

For example when the GIGN had to takeover the Airbus A300 in 1994 from Algerian terrorists. The GIGN were forced to rush in before schedule when the terrorists started killing hostages in their demand for fuel. There were 177 hostages in a plane, and obviously there were some casualties on the good side (including 4 GIGN operatives). But they did their job and the big majority of the hostages went home ...which means a success (the total number of terrorists were less than 10).

Same thing when the Israeli Sayeret (i believe it was Sayeret Mat'Kal) went in for the Entebbe raid in 1976. The Israelis managed to rescue the Israeli hostages, but at a loss of 3 hostages and 1 Sayeret operative (the total number of terrorists were 8).

As for the SAS their best day (known to the public) was 1980 when they handled the terrorists who had taken over the Iranian embassy in London demanding change in Iran.After ELEVEN WEEKS (almost 3 months) of negotiation the SAS decided to storm in (in those 11 weeks they had constructed a replica of the embassy and thus had almost 3 months of training). No hostages were killed in this case (and the Total number of terrorists was 6).

Now, in this Moscow situation there were around 50 terrorists. Fifty terrorists! Compare that number with the previous scenarios that had an average of around 7 terrorists. And the total number of hostages in the Moscow scenario was 750. Compare that with the above scenarios that had much fewer hostages. Also compare that in the Moscow case the Spetsgruppa al'fa special forces had to go in immediately because the Chechnyans had started murdering hostages ...and compare that with the SAS scenario where the SAS had trained for almost 3 months in a replica of the embassy.

And even think of the DELTA operation in 1980. Those brave Delta force men died when the thing got messed up before it even started due to the plane collusion! However you will notice that the special operation units of the world never criticized that operation because they know situations like that can easily go out of hand. There is usually a huge respect between spec-ops teams since they know how hard their job is.

Which is why seeing someone criticize the Russian effort (which was a huge success when you think of what they had to deal with), or seeing someone critique the Delta Force operation are both silly. I doubt the Russian spetsgruppa would have performed the Entebbe raid better than the Israeli Sayeret; I doubt the GIGN would have performed much better than the SAS operation in the embassy; and i doubt the Delta force would have perfomed better than the spetsgruppa alfa in the Moscow deal.

Comparing teams and criticizing them is just an exercise in folly. Although i am sorry many hostages died (90 at last estimate) i am certain that under the same situations, where the special-ops are forced to act immediately by terrorists slaying hostages, i doubt any spec-op team in the world would have done much better. Some may have saved 20 extra lives, others would have lost 10 extra. But the toll would have been more or less the same under the circumstances.

448 posted on 10/26/2002 6:45:09 PM PDT by spetznaz
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