Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: stanz
Again, it is the product of observation. Are you sure stanz? Given the timeframe in which simian species have evolved, is this something we have ever observed anywhere? Or is this something we merely "intend" in order to make our "theory" work out right?

To put it another way: I try to hang out with animals to the fullest extent possible. Mostly I just enjoy their company -- however brief, as usually seems the case when it comes to wildlife.

In dealing with domestic animals however -- dogs, cats, and horses form my experiential base -- it has been my experience that they react/respond, not to language, but to signals. Some of these signals may be verbal. Some may be physical cues.

The point is: Reaction to a signal does not necessarily prima facie demonstrate advanced cognitive abilities, let alone language interpretation skills.

Thus it seems to me that "reason," as you appear to describe it, cannot be a "body of knowledge." Rather, I'd say it's the preeminent tool for the qualification of what can pass for knowledge, as mediated by logic and experience.

Based on my experience, in general, animals do not exactly excel in the kind of intellectual operation that depends on language for its intelligible communication.

So if you were to tell me that there really isn't any real distinction of consequence as between humans and other animals (which is the "reasonable" conclusion to draw from Darwinist theory), then I'd have to say:

Show me: I'm just dying to see your evidence. Hopefully, what passes for evidence with you will not be wholly speculative, but would take actual life observation and experience into account....

95 posted on 10/25/2002 8:31:32 PM PDT by betty boop
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 72 | View Replies ]


To: betty boop
Show me

When I talk about animals collectively hunting, or using tools, I refer to Jane Goodall's landmark study of wild Chimpanzees at Gombe,Tanzania This work is an on-going project which began over 30 years ago and continues today. Dr. Goodall was the first to observe chimpanzees using twigs to "fish" for termites which are a delicacy for them. She stated that not all animals used this method, but that she observed adult females instructing their young how to do this. This was the first time an example of tool-use by a non-human primate was documented. Her students at Gombe and other primatologists working in other sites have also reported tool use among chimpanzees.
Dr. Goodall also reported that she observed small groups of animals banding together for the purpose of cornering and killing small monkeys which they enjoy consuming. They generally chose Colobus monkeys, but she observed them also killing other species. She described that the flesh would be eaten by the highest raking male and then distributed to other males and then females and juveniles.
When I discussed language, I thought primarily of the ongoing experiment with the gorilla Koko begun over 15 years ago ( could be older than that) by Dr. Francine (Penny) Patterson. Koko, a female was obtained as an infant and hand-raised by Dr.Patterson. She undertook a project which was designed to teach language through the use of symbols and AMESLAN (American sign language). Koko was systematically exposed to pictorial representations and signs and acquired an extensive vocabulary of over 251 (could be more) symbols to communicate with. Koko could combine words creatively to form new objects.Over the years, she voiced her desire to have a kitten and was given one which she named All Ball. Subsequently, All Ball was killed by a car and Dr. Patterson catalogued on film a period of inconsoleable mourning that Koko endured. She later chose another kitten. With Koko's maturity,Dr. Patterson realized that soon, she would be wanting a mate. Koko told Dr. Patterson that she wanted to have her own infant. Since choosing a potential mate for Koko would be a daunting process, Dr. Patterson allowed her to see photos of prospective mates to choose from. Subsequently, her male companion was sent from a zoo. Unfortunately, they have not mated as yet.
Another example of primates acquiring language was the experment with Kanzi the pygmy chimp. In the 1970's, Sue Savage Rumbaugh trained two chimps, Sherman and Austin, to use a keyboard to produce lexigrams (symbols representing objects like Koko used).When they became fairly fluent, she conmstructed an experment in which they had to cooperate to perform various tasks. She observed that they spontaneously used the lexigrams to learn from and communicate with one another.
In the experiment with a male chimp, Kanzi, Dr. Rumbaugh was surprised to observe that he had learned to use the keyboard to produce lexigrams entirely on his own by watching his adoptive mother.
There is also the oldest of the studies involving the chimp Washoe who was taught AMESLAN. This was the forerunner of all the other studies.
These experiments all display the extent to which non-human primates have exhibited cognitive abilities. If these animals can create words, explain their feelings, and communicate with their human and non-human companions, I believe this is evidence of a latent intellectual capacity. If you need references for any of the examples I cited, I will happy to provide them, but that will take some time to accomplish.

134 posted on 10/26/2002 2:25:15 PM PDT by stanz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 95 | View Replies ]

To: betty boop
Show me

When I talk about animals collectively hunting, or using tools, I refer to Jane Goodall's landmark study of wild Chimpanzees at Gombe,Tanzania This work is an on-going project which began over 30 years ago and continues today. Dr. Goodall was the first to observe chimpanzees using twigs to "fish" for termites which are a delicacy for them. She stated that not all animals used this method, but that she observed adult females instructing their young how to do this. This was the first time an example of tool-use by a non-human primate was documented. Her students at Gombe and other primatologists working in other sites have also reported tool use among chimpanzees.
Dr. Goodall also reported that she observed small groups of animals banding together for the purpose of cornering and killing small monkeys which they enjoy consuming. They generally chose Colobus monkeys, but she observed them also killing other species. She described that the flesh would be eaten by the highest raking male and then distributed to other males and then females and juveniles.
When I discussed language, I thought primarily of the ongoing experiment with the gorilla Koko begun over 15 years ago ( could be older than that) by Dr. Francine (Penny) Patterson. Koko, a female was obtained as an infant and hand-raised by Dr.Patterson. She undertook a project which was designed to teach language through the use of symbols and AMESLAN (American sign language). Koko was systematically exposed to pictorial representations and signs and acquired an extensive vocabulary of over 251 (could be more) symbols to communicate with. Koko could combine words creatively to form new objects.Over the years, she voiced her desire to have a kitten and was given one which she named All Ball. Subsequently, All Ball was killed by a car and Dr. Patterson catalogued on film a period of inconsoleable mourning that Koko endured. She later chose another kitten. With Koko's maturity,Dr. Patterson realized that soon, she would be wanting a mate. Koko told Dr. Patterson that she wanted to have her own infant. Since choosing a potential mate for Koko would be a daunting process, Dr. Patterson allowed her to see photos of prospective mates to choose from. Subsequently, her male companion was sent from a zoo. Unfortunately, they have not mated as yet.
Another example of primates acquiring language was the experment with Kanzi the pygmy chimp. In the 1970's, Sue Savage Rumbaugh trained two chimps, Sherman and Austin, to use a keyboard to produce lexigrams (symbols representing objects like Koko used).When they became fairly fluent, she conmstructed an experment in which they had to cooperate to perform various tasks. She observed that they spontaneously used the lexigrams to learn from and communicate with one another.
In the experiment with a male chimp, Kanzi, Dr. Rumbaugh was surprised to observe that he had learned to use the keyboard to produce lexigrams entirely on his own by watching his adoptive mother.
There is also the oldest of the studies involving the chimp Washoe who was taught AMESLAN. This was the forerunner of all the other studies.
These experiments all display the extent to which non-human primates have exhibited cognitive abilities. If these animals can create words, explain their feelings, and communicate with their human and non-human companions, I believe this is evidence of a latent intellectual capacity. If you need references for any of the examples I cited, I will happy to provide them, but that will take some time to accomplish.

135 posted on 10/26/2002 2:25:43 PM PDT by stanz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 95 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson