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To: stanz; gore3000; Phaedrus; PatrickHenry; Alamo-Girl
stanz, thank you very much for providing the summary of these various animal studies. I am already aware of most of them; but it's good for the record to have this information posted here for those who may not be.

At the end of the day, however, IMHO what all this boils down to are the questions: What is language? What is learning?

The way these terms have come to be understood has had to be drastically "defined down" in order for Koko's vocabulary, the ability of apes to learn American Sign Language, or to teach their young how to use sticks to skewer tasty morsels, etc., to even begin to minimally qualify as meeting the criteria of what language is, or what learning is.

When definitions are this "flexible," we can stretch them to accommodate almost any particular set of facts.

One could say on this basis that a horse weaving in his stall is effectively little different than a ballet dancer; for both can be observed to display regular, patterned motions. Or that there's no real, significant difference between the "output" of a songbird, and what Placido Domingo does.

I think there's been a big fad lately of "anthropomorphizing" the animals. This seems to be PETA's specialty.

But then maybe the point I'm trying to make here is so obvious it's actually difficult to see. To paraphrase an observation of S.I. Hayakawa, if we can see in a given situation only what "everybody else" [e.g., the "experts" and the trendy types] sees, than it can we said that we are so representative of our culture as to be a victim of it.

150 posted on 10/27/2002 9:02:17 AM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop
BB: if it's any comfort, I share your views on animal "intelligence." My dogs have some intelligence, (and some memory too), but their behavior seems to be nothing more complex than response to observations and stimuli. I doubt that they can do any abstract reasoning. That requires a special set of tools -- language -- because we think in words, and some of us think in numbers and symbols too. The lower animals don't seem very capable of that. I've never followed the ape/monkey studies. Or the dolphin studies either. They may do some very limited kinds of abstract thinking, but compared to what we humans do, it's just not in our league. Or so it seems to me.
151 posted on 10/27/2002 9:17:01 AM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: betty boop
Thank you so much for the heads up on your analysis!

I agree with your position in this debate (no surprise.) But I would like to extend it beyond intelligence and language.

IMHO, there is also a huge ego difference between man and animal. Man is exceedingly more willful ranging from greed, rebellion, murder, jealousy - to generosity, obedience, self sacrifice and altruism.

Certainly we see very rudimentary forms of this among the animals - mothers protecting their young, fighting over food, killing infants to breed again. But it would be astonishing indeed to see a hungry grizzly offer his kill to an injured wolf.

In my view, animals fulfill their environmental niche in this universe while man rebels against it. They aren't in the same league.

153 posted on 10/27/2002 9:33:07 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
I think there's been a big fad lately of "anthropomorphizing" the animals.

Well said, bb, at #150. In a very quiet voice I would add that there has historically also been a fair amount of this activity going on with regard to the attributes of God. Or so it would seem to me ...

183 posted on 10/27/2002 6:52:03 PM PST by Phaedrus
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To: betty boop
I will respond later tonight if my daughter relinquishes the computer. I am in a busy law office right now and cannot get back to you today.
216 posted on 10/28/2002 8:45:44 AM PST by stanz
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