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Stone Mountain wrote: I guess this is my point. Is clinically dead the same thing as death everlasting? Or is it just "near death?" You seem to be using the terms interchangably. Of course the difference is that death everlasting lasts forever, but what I was trying to ask was at the point at which one is clinically dead, are they reallydead? Do all the things that happen to dead people happen to them? At what point do they become dead and when do they cease to be dead? It seems to me that "near death" experiences could be any of a number of things that happen to the brain at or about the point of dying, but the brain itself may not die precisely at the point when the other organs give out.

Howdy, Stone Mountain

Ok....sorry about the short answer last night. I was one of the ones glued to FR & the TV about the sniper until after 8 this morning. :)

Stone Mountain wrote: Is clinically dead the same thing as death everlasting? Or is it just "near death?"

Yes...it would be the same...they would experience the same things. The clinical death would just continue on into death everlasting (of our bodies) if it wasn't for our modern techniques to revieve folks.

For all the folks who have experienced a NDE if it was 100 years ago they would still be dead and living in either Heaven or Hell. They wouldn't have been blessed with having a 2nd chance to change their ways. It's called "Near Death" because it was possible to resuscitate the patient, but for however long it took they were dead, until the heart beat & breathing started again.
There are also a few testimonies of folks that have been pronounced dead and taken to the morgue, but God still sent them back.

Such as this one: Dead for three days

Dr. George Rodonaia's near-death experience

Dr. George Rodonaia holds an M.D. and a Ph.D. in neuropathology, and a Ph.D. in the psychology of religion. Most recently he delivered a keynote address to the United Nations on the "Emerging Global Spirituality." Before emigrating to the United States from the Soviet Union in 1989, he worked as a research psychiatrist at the University of Moscow.

Dr. Rodonaia underwent one of the most extended cases of a "clinical near-death experience" ever recorded. Pronounced death immediately after he was hit by a car in 1976, he was left for three days in a morgue. He did not "return to life" until a doctor began to make an incision in his abdomen as part of an autopsy procedure.

Another notable feature of Dr. Rodonaia's near-death experience - and this one is common to many - is that he was radically transformed by it. Prior to his near-death experience he worked as a neuropathologist. He was also an avowed atheist. Yet after the experience, he devoted himself exclusively to the study of spirituality, taking a second doctorate in the psychology of religion. He then became an ordained priest in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Today he serves as a pastor at St. Paul United Methodist Church in Baytown, Texas.

The first thing I remember about my near-death experience is that I discovered myself in a realm of total darkness. I had no physical pain, I was still somehow aware of my existence as George, and all about me there was darkness, utter and complete darkness - the greatest darkness ever, darker than any dark, blacker than any black. This was what surrounded me and pressed upon me. I was horrified. I wasn't prepared for this at all. I was shocked to find that I still existed, but I didn't know where I was. The one thought that kept rolling through my mind was, How can I be when I'm not? That is what troubled me.

Slowly I got a grip on myself and began to think about what had happened, what was going on. But nothing refreshing or relaxing came to me. Why am I in this darkness? What am I to do? Then I remembered Descartes' famous line: "I think, therefore I am." And that took a huge burden off me, for it was then I knew for certain I was still alive, although obviously in a very different dimension. Then I thought, If I am, why shouldn't I be positive? That is what came to me. I am George and I'm in darkness, but I know I am. I am what I am. I must not be negative.

Then I thought, How can I define what is positive in darkness? Well, positive is light. Then, suddenly, I was in light; bright white, shiny and strong; a very bright light. I was like the flash of a camera, but not flickering - that bright. Constant brightness. At first I found the brilliance of the light painful, I couldn't look directly at it. But little by little I began to relax. I began to feel warm, comforted, and everything suddenly seemed fine.

The next thing that happened was that I saw all these molecules flying around, atoms, protons, neutrons, just flying everywhere. On the one hand, it was totally chaotic, yet what brought me such great joy was that this chaos also had its own symmetry. This symmetry was beautiful and unified and whole, and it flooded me with tremendous joy. I saw the universal form of life and nature laid out before my eyes. It was at this point that any concern I had for my body just slipped away, because it was clear to me that I didn't need it anymore, that it was actually a limitation.

Everything in this experience merged together, so it is difficult for me to put an exact sequence to events. Time as I had known it came to a halt; past, present, and future were somehow fused together for me in the timeless unity of life.

At some point I underwent what has been called the life-review process, for I saw my life from beginning to end all at once. I participated in the real life dramas of my life, almost like a holographic image of my life going on before me - no sense of past, present, or future, just now and the reality of my life. It wasn't as though it started with birth and ran along to my life at the University of Moscow. It all appeared at once. There I was. This was my life. I didn't experience any sense of guilt or remorse for things I'd done. I didn't feel one way or another about my failures, faults, or achievements. All I felt was my life for what it is. And I was content with that. I accepted my life for what it is.

During this time the light just radiated a sense of peace and joy to me. It was very positive. I was so happy to be in the light. And I understood what the light meant. I learned that all the physical rules for human life were nothing when compared to this unitive reality. I also came to see that a black hole is only another part of that infinity which is light.

I came to see that reality is everywhere. That it is not simply the earthly life but the infinite life. Everything is not only connected together, everything is also one. So I felt a wholeness with the light, a sense that all is right with me and the universe.

I could be anywhere instantly, really there. I tried to communicate with the people I saw. Some sensed my presence, but no one did anything about it. I felt it necessary to learn about the Bible and philosophy. You want, you receive. Think and it comes to you. So I participated, I went back and lived in the minds of Jesus and his disciples. I heard their conversations, experienced eating, passing wine, smells, tastes.

If I didn't understand what was happening, an explanation would come. But no teacher spoke. I explored the Roman Empire, Babylon, the times of Noah and Abraham. Any era you can name, I went there.

So there I was, flooded with all these good things and this wonderful experience, when someone begins to cut into my stomach. Can you imagine? What had happened was that I was taken to the morgue. I was pronounced dead and left there for three days. An investigation into the cause of my death was set up, so they sent someone out to do an autopsy on me. As they began to cut into my stomach, I felt as though some great power took hold of my neck and pushed me down. And it was so powerful that I opened my eyes and had this huge sense of pain. My body was cold and I began to shiver. They immediately stopped the autopsy and took me to the hospital, where I remained for the following nine months, most of which I spent under a respirator.

Slowly I regained my health. But I would never be the same again, because all I wanted to do for the rest of my life was study wisdom. This new interest led me to attend the University of Georgia, where I took my second Ph.D., in the psychology of religion. Then I became a priest in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Eventually, in 1989, we came to America, and I am now working as an associate pastor at the First United Methodist Church in Nederland, Texas.

Many people have asked me what I believe in, how my near-death experience changed my life. All I can say is that I now believe in the God of the universe. Unlike many other people, however, I have never called God the light, because God is beyond our comprehension. God, I believe, is even more than the light, because God is also darkness. God is everything that exists, everything - and that is beyond our ability to comprehend at all.

Anyone who has had such an experience of God, who has felt such a profound sense of connection with reality, knows that there is only one truly significant work to do in life, and that is love; to love nature, to love people, to love animals, to love creation itself, just because it is. To serve God's creation with a warm and loving hand of generosity and compassion - that is the only meaningful existence.

Many people turn to those who have had near-death experiences because they sense we have the answers. But I know this is not true, at least not entirely. None of us will fully fathom the great truths of life until we finally unite with eternity at death. But occasionally we get glimpses of the answer here on earth, and that alone is enough for me. I love to ask questions and to seek answers, but I know in the end I must live the questions and the answers.

Stone Mountain wrote: Of course the difference is that death everlasting lasts forever, but what I was trying to ask was at the point at which one is clinically dead, are they really dead? Do all the things that happen to dead people happen to them? At what point do they become dead and when do they cease to be dead?

The really dead would be when resuscitation fails...they would still experience everything, but be unable to come back to tell us what they saw. And the body would start the decaying process.

The best explanation I can give you that we can all understand at what happens at the moment of death is when Betty Maltz gave her testimony...she said it felt just like that highpoint of a roller coaster ride. When you feel that little lift. One second she was in her body & the next second she was in Heaven.

The only thing that dies is our body...our body is like a house...we live in it for awhile and then move out of it, but we will be more alive then....then we are now. What makes us...us (spirit & souls) continues on. We never die...we just trade locations.

The Bible gives us a picture of what hell is like in Luke 16:19. The rich man knew everything that was going on around him...he could feel the heat...he would have given anything for a drop of water to cool his tongue...he had eyes as he saw Lazarus in the far distance with Abraham...he was in torment. He had a type of body, but not a flesh & blood body.

All the one's that reject Jesus as their personel Lord and Savior will continue to experience torment for all eternity.

The Bible gives us a picture of what heaven is like in:

2 Cor 12:2 Fourteen years ago I was taken up to heaven for a visit. Don't ask me whether my body was there or just my spirit, for I don't know; only God can answer that.

2 Cor 12:3 But anyway, there I was in paradise,

2 Cor 12:4 and heard things so astounding that they are beyond a man's power to describe or put in words (and anyway I am not allowed to tell them to others).

2 Cor 12:5 That experience is something worth bragging about, but I am not going to do it. I am going to boast only about how weak I am and how great God is to use such weakness for his glory.

2 Cor 12:6 I have plenty to boast about and would be no fool in doing it, but I don't want anyone to think more highly of me than he should from what he can actually see in my life and my message.

2 Cor 12:7 I will say this: because these experiences I had were so tremendous, God was afraid I might be puffed up by them; so I was given a physical condition which has been a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan to hurt and bother me and prick my pride.

2 Cor 12:8 Three different times I begged God to make me well again.

2 Cor 12:9 Each time he said, "No. But I am with you; that is all you need. My power shows up best in weak people." Now I am glad to boast about how weak I am; I am glad to be a living demonstration of Christ's power, instead of showing off my own power and abilities.

Now to explain a little bit better about our bodies...when this body we live in now dies...we'll have a spiritual body, but we'll only have it until Jesus returns, then we (Christians) get our flesh and bone body just like Jesus has.

1 Th 4:13 And now, dear brothers, I want you to know what happens to a Christian when he dies so that when it happens, you will not be full of sorrow, as those are who have no hope.

1 Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and then came back to life again, we can also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him all the Christians who have died.

1 Th 4:15 I can tell you this directly from the Lord: that we who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet him ahead of those who are in their graves.

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a mighty shout and with the soul-stirring cry of the archangel and the great trumpet-call of God. And the believers who are dead will be the first to rise to meet the Lord.

1 Th 4:17 Then we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever.

1 Th 4:18 So comfort and encourage each other with this news.

Stone Mountain wrote: It seems to me that "near death" experiences could be any of a number of things that happen to the brain at or about the point of dying, but the brain itself may not die precisely at the point when the other organs give out.

Thanks for asking about the question of the brain. There are many scientist's working on NDE's trying to prove or disprove it as with anything else. Some say it's a lack of oxygen to the brain & ect...ect.

In my opinion our brain is like a VCR recorder. Everything we've ever done in our whole lifetime is recorded on it...a permanent record.

When we each one stand before God to account for our actions down here...we won't be able to deny anything...our brain has recorded every second of it.

As you will see when you read all the NDE's most all of the folks have a life's review of everything they've done in this life time.

Now as a word of caution there are also New Ager's NDE's too...where they say everyone goes to Heaven.

2 Cor 11:14 Yet I am not surprised! Satan can change himself into an angel of light,

2 Cor 11:15 so it is no wonder his servants can do it too, and seem like godly ministers. In the end they will get every bit of punishment their wicked deeds deserve.

And I don't believe in reincarnation...as the Bible tells us:

Heb 9:27 And just as it is destined that men die only once, and after that comes judgment,

Heb 9:28 so also Christ died only once as an offering for the sins of many people; and he will come again, but not to deal again with our sins. This time he will come bringing salvation to all those who are eagerly and patiently waiting for him.

I only believe in the Christian NDE's.

John 14:6 Jesus told him, "I am the Way--yes, and the Truth and the Life. No one can get to the Father except by means of me.

John 14:7 If you had known who I am, then you would have known who my Father is. From now on you know him--and have seen him!"