Why Men Won't Commit: Men's Atitudes About Sex, Dating and Marriage

National Marriage Project (Rutgers University) ^ | 2002 | Barbara Dafoe Whitehead and David Popenoe

[GirlNextDoor]

That's a nice egalitarian sentiment, but what would would it look like in concrete practice?

You can always try the experiment and post your results here! ;-)

I think it can be proven that, while people may be able to encourage or inspire someone, no one has the actual power to change anyone else.(Was that what you were getting at?)
And why should they? A forced change would only delay an eventual rebellion, if the change doesn't come from within the person themselves.

[GirlNextDoor]

Yes, I have studied the curses in Genesis 3. Thanks.

I see how you could misunderstand my earlier comment. It was quite general.
Are you familiar with 1 Corinthians 11:3 and 11:11-12?
Those are a good example of what I meant.
Although, In the same chapter you referenced, Genesis 3 (:24 -which is re-stated in Ephesians 5:31) there is also an example, but it is a physical one.

BTW, I thought it was interesting that the word independent never appears in the Bible.

Hope that is somewhat clearer.

[shrinkermd]

"We have too many people saying, thinking, and acting, "It's all about me" That paradigm infiltrates most every part of our society, and it will be our downfall if not corrected soon"

Excellent thought and certainly an important part of any sustained relationship. The other part that has not been really discussed in the 600 plus posts is the importance of cooperation and friendship. The late, great Alfred Adler once said, "..A marriage is 50% chemistry and 50% cooperation..." Often a successful male/female friendship is complementary with a common goal. Not infrequently it has to do with raising a family but it can also include other efforts such as Will and Ariel Durant who wrote and cooperated on a lifetime work of history. In addition, Ronald and Nancy Reagan who focused and cooperated on a political cause would be an example. The types of cooperation are infinite but the essence is a union of effort cemented by friendship.

In the generation before mine it was often the case that the family farm was the center of everyone's existence and hopes. Mom and Dad cooperated in not only raising a family but in keeping it fed and clothed by attending to the needs of a farm. Only a small percentage of us can live on a family farm now, but we can develop and nourish common goals.

[bcoffey]

"BTW, I thought it was interesting that the word independent never appears in the Bible."

Yep, you're right! (I pulled out the Concordance to be sure! LOL)

The whole concept of "independent" is foreign to biblical thought, for it is God's purpose to bring us to unity (not 'unison'), e.g., per John 17. The concept of Trinity shows perfect unity.

With that thought as a foundation, other concepts become clearer: submission, esteeming others better than self, loving enemies, and so forth.

My, my! You've got me started! LOL

[agrandis]

Wow! You're still around here, pontificating more than ever!

All I can say, from what I have scanned in the blink of an eye that I can allot to this thread is, "hear, here!"

One point to add to this thread (maybe I'm adding it; who can read the entire thing in a lifetime): originally, it IS the fault of us men, because we lead, whether we want to or not.

Keep on keepin' on,

Love,
A man striving for selflessness and non-sissyness

[Orangedog]

...wanted to warn him, but he believed her rants concerning Me so... In a little cell he sits.

Yup, I was married to one of those, too. I was "Victim #1." After she burnt through our marriage, she is now sharpening her claws on "Victim #4." I tried to give #'s 2 and 3 a heads-up, but by the time 4 came around, it was time to let nature run it's course. When this fool confronted me, here was my response:

"I could warn you, but you wouldn't listen. I could kill you, but someone would only take your place. So I do the only other thing I can...I wash my hands of the matter. You may go now. And by the way...the next time you pound on my door, do me a favor and make sure that your armed, because it will save me the effort of planting a weapon on your body for the police to find. Now be a good little puppet and get home so Geppetto can pull some more of your strings."I imagine it too him a while to get the whole Pinnochio bit. She's beeing going for the dumber ones in recent years.

[Orangedog]

Especially since I became disabled and was told by one lawyer who didn't want my case - "You aren't supposed to collect on your disability. You are just supposed to pay for it for other classes(groups) and then die."

Looks like I won't be the only one on the lawyer-hunt when society collapses ;)

The industry in my state had better hope that I never win a hidiously large powerball jackpot, because if I did, I would then have the resources to dismantle the industry into a thousand pieces, burn said pieces, then scatter their ashes to the wind. No, they don't want to see what I could do to their livelyhood with $80,000,000.

[Woahhs]

No one asked about changing someone else...I was asking what practice YOU as a woman, in light of your "pulling together" comment, would change in the spirit of cooperation, rather than sitting back waiting for the other side to change.

Yes I am familiar with 1 Cor 11, but that's not what I was getting at with reference to the curse of the fall. I was refering to the internal power struggle that God instituted between man and woman. It's not a matter of independence, it's a matter of leadership and resistance to same. Even church women are content to follow the leadership of their husbands...provided he only leads where she wants to go.

People have a marvelous facility for redefining things so the original intent is of no affect. It's only after you identify those mechanisms, and drop them, that things start to fall into place. My question to you is...what have you identified?

[Mark17]

Even church women are content to follow the leadership of their husbands...provided he only leads where she wants to go.

LOL, that was surely my experience. Maybe you can appreciate why I went OCS for a Christian woman.

[Woahhs]

The word "Trinity" never shows up either, but you believe in that concept.

That's the nature of rebellion. People say they want a leader, but they reserve to themselves a veto when things don't go the way they want. The concept is very much "the backseat driver," neither leading, nor following.

I always think it hilarious that the churches are full of single/divorced women secretly praying God will send them a man (when what they are really asking for is a prince charming). That would be fine except none of them happen to be the fairy princess worthy of a prince charming.

[GirlNextDoor]

Wow! You're still around here, pontificating more than ever!

Pontificating? Yikes! Do my posts come across arrogant as that?!
I'm really sorry, everyone. I didn't realize and I didn't intend for them to at all. :-/

__________________________________________

Hi agrandis.:-)
Thanks for the added point, I haven't read every comment either, but I didn't see this brought up in the ones I did read.
Being a female I guess I would be crazy not to jump at the chance to agree. (Hmmm...or is it -- being a female of course I *won't* agree. ;-D)
I do agree men are to lead, whether they like it or not. But I see this mess as comparable to the apple in the garden. Eve certainly earned her share of the blame there and received it, too.

Love right back at ya, sir. :)

[GirlNextDoor]

No one asked about changing someone else...I was asking what practice YOU as a woman, in light of your "pulling together" comment, would change in the spirit of cooperation, rather than sitting back waiting for the other side to change.

Assuming you aren't just wanting a fight, I'll try to answer. But I have to say, it is a personal decision each individual has to make, and I doubt those I make will make a noticable dent to society at large.

I would continue doing what I do now, I guess. Refuse to play the gender games that only hurt and resolve nothing. Try to be strong enough not to give in to all the goodies the law says it will give me and the NOW groupies claim I'm entitled, too. Let the men be what they are and work on being a help rather than a hindrance. As I said, personal, and prolly not to your liking. But then, that's not any of my concern, as I'm neither a church-going woman, nor secretly praying or looking for God to send me any man.
I'm in a rush and if I didn't give an answer to all your points, sorry.
Good day to you.

[agrandis]

I was going to tell you that "pontificate" does not have to imply arrogance, but I looked it up in my Webster's, and I see it could very well imply that! Oh, well, what I meant was, philosophizing as much as ever. Philosophizing is good. :)

Agree that neither men or women are being what they were made to be, and therein is the problem.

I keep hearing an ad on the radio for the Marines. It has a bunch of little girls screaming and grunting in the background, and a young high-schoolish female voice talking about what it takes to like, you know, become a marine. If that ad doesn't demonstrate how screwed up we've become, I don't know what does! I nearly weep whenever I hear it, and now have to quickly turn the radio off whenever it does come on.

[longtermmemmory]

"If I might add something?... Would it not be correct to characterize American women much like the Democratic party in that they are content to abide by, and capitalize on, the societal "rules" until those rules prevent them from "winning"...at which point they "expand" the rules just enough to insure the desired outcome.

If I understand correctly, foreign women are much more respectful of the terms of the social contract. "

That is a very insightful way of putting it. Unfortunatly the american women you comment on do not care. They have found the gravy train and are seeking to expand it. The best solution:

Make feminism a thought crime. Reject any sponsor of a feminst show the same way they would not sponsor a pro-nazi show.

The silent treatment being non-marriage material.

[Woahhs]

The silent treatment being non-marriage material.

A bit too late for that in my case FRiend. I've been married to my "first wife" for over 15 years now, but we are extremely compatable...neither one of us can stand the typical american woman.

[Woahhs]

Assuming you aren't just wanting a fight, I'll try to answer. But I have to say, it is a personal decision each individual has to make, and I doubt those I make will make a noticable dent to society at large... I would continue doing what I do now, I guess.

I'm never "just wanting a fight," but I did hope to find out whether you had a substantive plan to propose, or were kidding yourself with high-minded platitudes.

Personally, I think the first step would be a common communications format: logic.

[Bush2000]

If you find one REALLY woth marrying, you won't need a contract.

I disagree. She may be worth marrying NOW. But that isn't the issue. The issue is 10 or 20 or 30 years down the line, when she's ready to move on. You don't sign a prenuptial agreement for next week. It's a longterm thing.

[GirlNextDoor]

I did hope to find out whether you had a substantive plan to propose, or were kidding yourself with high-minded platitudes.

Actually, here's exactly what you've been asking me...

That's a nice egalitarian sentiment, but what would would it look like in concrete practice?...

...What would you change?

I gave an answer on change, and the differences between those we can achieve and those we can't. So what is it, sir? You want what I would change or what I can change? What does it possibly matter what I *would* (i.e.wish I could) change?

Then you came back with this:

I was asking what practice YOU as a woman, in light of your "pulling together" comment, would change in the spirit of cooperation, rather than sitting back waiting for the other side to change.

To which I gave you a list of what I personally CAN and DO change. If you have the opinion that it's equivalent to "sitting back and waiting for the other side to change", well then, that's fine. You're certainly entitled to your opinion! Even those that might have unflatteriing implications. ;)

Your last comment included your offer of what I can only assume you consider a substantive plan. Here it is:

Personally, I think the first step would be a common communications format: logic

Bravo! I agree 100%!:-)
Now, please expand on this so that, "in the spirit of cooperation", I can pitch in and do my share.

Tell me, sir, how do you intend to force others to use logic? Which, in this day and age, is about the most monumentally ambitious CHANGE to wish to impose on others. Can you be quite sure you even systematically use logic yourself?

Having everyone communicate logically may be what you WOULD (i.e. Wish to) make happen but it's not something you CAN make happen.

So, in reality, what you stated is not a substantive plan but actually a "high-minded platitude" . I'm afraid your next logical step is to start wringing your hands...

[GirlNextDoor]

Oh, well, what I meant was, philosophizing as much as ever. Philosophizing is good. :)

Oh! OK. Thanks for the clarification, I appreciate it. :-)

[GirlNextDoor]

Re: #604?

Freepmail in the morning. :-)