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To: Iron Eagle
Thus, you have law enforcement acting on specific infirmation, from a witness, with additional background information from other witnesses,

All very true and legalistic, but the chances of a white van being "witnessed" near one of these shootings is very high. We all know LE can cover their butts in this case, the debate is over the risk in stopping arbitrary white vans at gunpoint and dragging their owners out onto the ground versus the value of justice and preventing future crime.

Obviously IANL.

647 posted on 10/20/2002 6:39:16 PM PDT by palmer
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To: palmer
the debate is over the risk in stopping arbitrary white vans at gunpoint and dragging their owners out onto the ground versus the value of justice and preventing future crime.

The debate is over probable cause. No one can be dragged out of their van at gunpoint onto the ground with out that foundation of probable cause. (They could be, but that's why we have Courts).

The important thing in this "debate," is that no one has demonstrated that anyone's rights were violated. That picture sure doesn't do it. We don't know why that guy is on the ground and handcuffed. Hell, we don't even know when and where that picture was taken. We sure don't knwo that the guy was dragged out. It may well be that he was run down. He might have fallen out drunk. He might have been pulled out fighting mad.

The point is, all evidence so far is that the police have acted within the bounds of law with respect to probable cause stops incident to a felony. Is this some poor bastard with an outstanding warrant, or driving on a suspended license, or driving drunk. Hell, he might not have been driving at all. He might have had a weapon.

The only thing we need to know is did the police have the right to stop him and search is vehicle under the facts and circumstances. I have submitted that they did.

If you want me to agree that the police did not have the right to walk up to his van, without saying a word, and pull him out and through him to the ground, I agree. I am with you on that. As I said before though, we don't know who he is, how he got there, when, and why. But we do know that if you were driving a white van, with certain characteristics, within a driving range of the scene of the crime, the police do have probable cause to stop your vehicle on that information.

Now, if you folks are telling me that you don't think that should be so, then tell it to the Virginia Legislature. But right now, law enforcement is acting under the principles giuded by the U.S. Supreme Court as it interprests the rights of the 4th amendment with respect to search and seizure and probable cause. That's all we have. It is true that a state can afford more rights by state statute if it wishes, but of course it could never provide less than approved and sanctioned by the Supreme Court and garunteed by the U.S. Constitution.

656 posted on 10/20/2002 6:55:56 PM PDT by Iron Eagle
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