Posted on 10/20/2002 7:48:19 AM PDT by SamAdams76
The photos above currently on the Drudge site concern me. I followed the link and the article clearly stated that nobody was arrested last night.
Why then, do we have drivers of white vans, innocent civilians, evidently being pulled out vans at gunpoint and treated like dangerous criminals? One photo shows a man on the ground, evidently in handcuffs, with police officers standing over him as though they have just captured Whitey Bulger. When I first saw the photo, I figured the man was obviously a wanted criminal that police just so happened to come across during their search. But since there were no arrests last night, this man was obviously released and was no criminal after all.
The other photo shows a man by another white van with his hands in the air and a police officer has a gun drawn on him. Again, this was evidently just another innocent civilian who had the misfortune to be driving a white van on I-95 last night.
Now I understand the need for these roadblocks and for the police to be very thorough in their search for the sniper(s). But I cannot see the point of innocent people dragged out of their vehicles at gunpoint with no pretext other than the fact that they happen to be driving a white van.
Now maybe somebody here has an explanation why these two individuals were treated like criminals. Maybe they tried to evade the police or maybe they were driving stolen vans. But again, there were no arrests made last night. So what is the deal with our citizens being treated like Jesse James just for driving a white van?
First of all, war was declared on us on 9-11-01 by Muslim fascists, just in case you didn't notice. Stop hiding behind rhetorical technicalities; it's a really shallow and childish defense. And second, this has EVERYTHING to do with the attack (war) of 9-11.
Psssstt: there are a whole BUNCH of evil people out there, here, there and everywhere who want to see us DEAD. Yes, YOU included. If that's not reason enough for hyper-vigilance, then I don't know what IS.
Gather enough evidence against a particular individual or individuals and then follow the 4th:
no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Use intelligence satellites to monitor the area, and record all data to disk. Once a shooting occurs, determine the trajectory, locate the position that the sniper fired from, then zoom in on that area to see the sniper arrive at the site and then leave.
For the past 10+ years or so I've observed how LE across the country at virtually every level of our LE organizations has become more and more militarized in their dress, tactics and attitudes (in general) in dealing with the public and the criminal element. Like most everyone here I'm not too concerned with criminal types but I am very much concerned with how our police types are treating the public overall not only involved here but in our everyday life.
The reasons for this are myriad, ranging from a well intentioned but nonetheless out-of-control Federal asset forfeiture law (some could easily argue law sanctioned theft in some cases) where monies and or personal property have been confiscated and converted to use by the confiscatory (sp) agency without having to make any kind of a legitimate case for the legal theft from our citizens that have commited no crime of any kind. However that is another story in and of itself and has been talked and debated here many times already. These proceeds have afforded these LE agencies to outfit and train their cadre in para-military tactics and dress (and I could easily argue gives (at least some of) them more reason to confiscate the innocent publics properties).
And the attitude of the public at-large in dealing with crime in their neighborhoods and with high profile crimes plastered across their television screens and front pages of our local newspapers over the past 10-20 years and demanding that our politicians and police crack down any way they can/could, and not wanting to be bothered with the details of how the police and politicos chose to address the demands of the public fed up with crime.
We are now seeing the results of those attitudes and demands and if the tide isn't turned soon we will all be cowering in our homes and businesses in as much fear of the police as the criminal element. In addition to the pictures you posted here I too have seen over the past week to ten days scenes where black clad and hooded police officers(?) running up to vehicle's on the road at these roadblocks(?) with their highly visible (and extremely intimidating) assault weapons raised and pointed at citizens all the while yelling at the top of their lungs angry orders at these innocent citizens (yes , I said innocent as everyone under our system of once perceived justice is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, not by some out-of-control jerk who happens to be pretending to be representing us and law-n-order).
I want this killer('s) caught as well as anyone does but do the police have to compound the fear factor in the community with their tactics?! I must wonder just what some of you police boosters will be saying when one of these crew-cut commando style cops kill an innocent civilian in one of these assault style tactics at a road block or traffic stop when that citizen makes the smallest of mistakes in trying to comply with a screaming black-hooded and clothed maniac pointing an assault rifle at them? I'm sure you'll find a way to say that the dead civilian probably somehow deserved it. I do believe that Stalin would have loved you guys, the way you think that the state (police in this case) can do no wrong in your eyes, period.
The police must gather enough evidence against a particular individual or individuals to make an actual case and then follow the 4th to the letter:
no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Each and every time, each and every *real* suspect.
Of course, the absence of a better way would do nothing to legitimize this way of doing things.
BTW, my response is posted way back in #168.
Southern Rock.... We don't know who to look for. Once in awhile the bad guys are smarter than the average dope. There is no evidence against a particular individual. There is gunfire and a victim on the ground. Can we not try to stop people who are leaving the area in your rule book?
First of all, the searching of the white vans is pretty silly to begin with. Think about it, the sniper(s) follow the news and know that everybody is focused on white vans. You think they would be sitting in a roadblock for hours on I-95 in a white van with the incriminating evidence stashed under the back seat somewhere? If they are driving in a white van at all, it is going to be as clean as a whistle.
What we have here is a panicked knee-jerk reaction on the part of law enforcement. Yanking people out of vans at gunpoint and throwing them to the ground is not going to accomplish anything (except trample on our constitutional rights). Now I said earlier and I'll say again that I respect police officers. But in this case, they are wrong. I understand that every cop involved is very angry about all these people getting shot and wants badly to get these snipers. After all, these policemen are sworn to defend the public and I'm sure they are taking these snipings personally. But this is the wrong way to go about it.
What tactics are appropriate in this situation? First of all, the police should be doing stakeouts at every restaurant, gas station and shopping mall possible along I-95. For the best chance of apprehending these snipers is to either catch them in the act or be on the scene within a minute of two of the attack. What annoys me is that whenever one of these snipings occur, you see hundred of police officers converging upon the scene where they proceed to mill about for hours. What are they all doing there?
It only takes a dozen or so officers to secure the site of the shooting and look for evidence, etc. The rest of the officers should be on the chase. If a description of a vehicle comes over the radio, then they should stop all vehicles that fit that description, be it a white van, a red Camaro or a yellow Volkswagon. If the vehicle pulls over, they should approach the car carefully just as they do any other traffic stop and check it out. They should NOT be drawing their guns at this point and telling the occupant to get face down in the dirt. However, if the vehicle tries to evade them or fires at them, then all bets are off and they should bring the vehicle to a stop BY ALL MEANS NECESSARY.
I think right now the best thing we can do is issue police officers night vision goggles and start putting them in the woods behind all these likely places of attack. It appears that the sniper may be positioning himself in a wooded area and then quickly moving through the woods to a vehicle nearby in another parking lot. I think we have a reasonable chance of catching the sniper in the act if we do this. And if there aren't enough officers to cover these areas, let's call out the National Guard.
I don't know if the snipers are Muslim but these attacks resemble the attacks of 9-11 and suicide bombings more than they resemble the classic psychopath pattern. The targets are random, innocent people just going about their business. That's what makes me think it is Islamic.
NO, my question is not an attempt to shut down debate. I am simply looking for freeper ideas on how to catch the sniper without violating rights. I asked last night and didn't get any answers (except one from EV), so I am asking again. With so many people complaining about so many different problems with the investigation, I'd like to see someone give a solution. Plain and simple.
Since when do we need a court issued piece of paper when reasonable cause is so blatently obvious?
This is NOT an abuse of police power, this is commonsense.
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