Liking yourself is good - right? Importance of self-esteem an idea whose time has past

National Post ^ | October 15, 2002 | Robert Fulford

[nicmarlo]

in 1987 when the California legislature, convinced it had found the key to understanding human failure, set up the Task Force to Promote Self-Esteem and Personal and Social Responsibility. The assemblyman who promoted this idea, John Vasconcellos, believed that raising the self-image of the citizens would cure drug addiction, crime and many other social ills.

My daughter and I have personal experience from the results of this Task Force. You can even read about it in Chapter 2-10, "Why 'We Three Moms' Headed for Sacramento," from the book by Robert Holland, Not With My Child You Don't [excerpt follows]:

. . . a mom from another school called me to express concerns with her third-grader's radical personality change since school began (actually, my daughter was in Kindergarten, not third grade; the grade was changed to protect her identity). The children in her class were twice-weekly involved in a "magic" circle--a teacher-directed, self-esteem program written by Jack Canfield [he was involved with the above-mentioned Task Force, BTW] ("1,000 Ways to Improve Self-Esteem in the Classroom").

The program instructed little children how to chant mantras, and it encouraged them to share very personal feelings with the group with such questions as "Which parent does the child care for most? Did the child ever wish one of his or her parents were dead? If so, which one and why?"

The child [my 5-year-old daughter] was not sharing as the group passed the stuffed teddy bear around. Unbeknownst to the mother, a male school counselor was called on the scene. The child's lunch was taken away [by her female teacher] until she gave the counselor a hug--a forced hug! Her lunch was given back to her [by her teacher who stood by and watched]. Recalled a parent aid, "she walked to the trash barrel and threw her lunch away." [The parent aid, my friend, said my daughter was almost in tears and wouldn't speak to her afterwards.]

There's more, of course, not printed in the Chapter. I pulled my daughter out of school after getting nowhere with my outrage with the teacher, the counselor, the principal (who, I learned, also stood by and watched the whole episode), the school superintendent, and the President of the Board of Education for the community. End result, I flew to Sacramento to speak to the California Board of Education. They did nothing about these programs. My complaints fell on deaf ears. However, the group in which I was involved successfully forced the school district to stop these programs unless WRITTEN PARENTAL CONSENT was first received by parents: thanks to the HATCH AMENDMENT (as in Orrin Hatch from Utah), which gives FEDERAL protections to students from privacy invasions and psychological manipulation.

[Ragtime Cowgirl]

I am so sorry that you and your daughter went through this child abuse...kindergarten?! I'd want more than the teacher's license. Your daughter's fortunate to have a parent who can protect her from the growing number of predators in sheep's clothing...perhaps teach her to use a sling. Self-esteem through self-defense.

[nicmarlo]

They did nothing to the teacher, counselor, principal. I would have had to go to court to sue the school. A famous Christian legal group, based out of D.C. was willing to take the case, pro bono, however, they warned me that my daughter would have to take the stand, and given her age, they advised against it; she had already been traumatized and were concerned for further emotional problems, which she exhibited for several months. This event occurred in November 1990. She was not "herself" until about early March of 1991, this with her not being subjected to being around the teacher or the counselor, who she became desparately afraid of.

[aruanan]

Lol! I missed that...but do those old-fashioned rules of grammar and spelling matter today if, by pointing out someone's mistake, you hurt their self-esteem? (^:

You mean, "hurt his self-esteem" or "hurt her self-esteem"? I think if someone's self-esteem is so fragile that it could be hurt by someone else pointing out his error in grammar, then his self-esteem is too grandiose to fit in reality. If a person feels that his self-esteem is damaged when he feels bad over being criticized (we'll assume rightfully), then his self-esteem is an overinflated type that he should believe that he is above all criticism. This kind of self-esteem desperately needs puncturing.

[Ragtime Cowgirl]

I was parroting (mocking) the PC line, but thanks for the tips. (^:

[aruanan]

I was parroting (mocking) the PC line, but thanks for the tips. (^:

I kinda figured that.

[Skywalk]

Sink,

I think you're one of our better known, and more interesting posters but you're letting semantics undermine your credibility on this issue.

There is MORE than one study indicating(others involve research into juvenile offenders) that "self-esteem" as opposed to self-respect or regard was higher in offenders than in non-offender populations.

About a decade ago in Scientific American, research showed that American parents and students felt better about their intelligence and school/test performance than the Asian parents and students that outperformed them.

Self-esteem is the superficial self-love with no consideration of merit or worth. Self-worth or self-respect is tied into one's accomplishments, moral character, ingenuity, etc.

Do a quick read of crimelibrary.com, and you'll find nearly all of the psychopathic killers had an inflated sense of their worth vis-a-vis other humans they encountered. It was this sense of superiority, this hollow Narcissism(described by Dostoevsky in Crime and Punishment) that fueled their actions. Yes, SOME(but not all by a long shot) had traumas or some level of hatred for themselves, but they still operated from the context of hyper-Narcissism.

The fact is, the self-esteem that the author and various scientists are referring to IS a significant problem. Believe me, have you met young criminal types? I'm 25 and I've met a fair share. They're almost uniformly arrogant(and I've been labelled a tad overconfident myself, so that's saying something) and regard others as means to their own ends, even if it means violence and manipulation. These budding psychopaths know they hurt people and know they do wrong, but DO NOT CARE. They lack empathy and value ONLY themselves. They do NO hate themselves in any capacity. Quite to the contrary, they believe themselves near-infallible.

[sinkspur]

Self-esteem is the superficial self-love with no consideration of merit or worth. Self-worth or self-respect is tied into one's accomplishments, moral character, ingenuity, etc.

I know what self-esteem is; according to my huge Webster's self-esteem and self-respect are interchangeable. Criminals, by definition, have a distorted view of themselves, that's why they're criminals.

Just because a criminal has misplaced self-esteem doesn't mean that self-esteem as a concept should be thrown out. I typically take my lessons about psychological health from psychologically healthy people, not murderers and rapists.

Self-esteem is not the cause nor even a major problem with criminals; their view of right and wrong is. If someone thinks highly of himself after he's murdered someone, he's got a distorted view of reality and a distorted view of himself.

I'm 25

Thanks for your wisdom. Care to share with me some jewels about how to be successful in business?

[Skywalk]

Was that dig necessary??? And business has relevance to this subject? Mentioning my age was merely to point out that I've had run-ins with young people with various moral defects, some more dangerous and destructive than others, that's all.

The only thing remotely insulting I posted was that you are a respected poster but you were letting the semantics get in your way.

[sinkspur]

The only thing remotely insulting I posted was that you are a respected poster but you were letting the semantics get in your way.

And I pointed out that the semantics were not the issue. Like the debunkers, your first refuge is to quote studies of criminals and psychopaths, real experts in self-esteem.

I'd prefer to study those who have a healthy view of themselves, true self-esteem, and they are the successful, the happy, those who work for the betterment of society.

Clinton would tell you that he felt good about himself, too, but he engaged in all kinds of self-destructive behavior that proved he loathed himself.

[Skywalk]

Ok, but you seem to have ignored the Scientific American study of American and Asian parents and students. As the Asian students were, on the average, more successful in school and on national and international tests of ability and knowledge, this seems to cut into your criticism that we're only using criminals as the foundation for our argument.

So, if you could, address what I said about the SA study.

[Ahban]

I agree with the article. Students today are more likely to have an excess of self-esteem and a deficeit in humilty.

[SauronOfMordor]

"Self-esteem", however, is (or at least has been co-opted as) an ersatz form of self-confidence.

Self confidence relates to what you think you are able to do. Self-esteem has to do with what you think you are worth, or what you think you deserve. Big distinction

I'm associated with a computerized dating service, and I think that there is a problem with excessive self esteem with many people -- like overweight middle-aged women who won't settle for anything less than a wealthy, handsome professional in excellent physical condition, or unemployed slobs who want to date Victoria's Secret models. Jeeze

The essence of criminality is excessive self-esteem, the feeling that, even though you're lazy and illiterate, you deserve more than what a McDonalds job will give you, and if the world won't give it to you, then you're gonna take it.

[SauronOfMordor]

Instead of calling it "genuine self-esteem", lets bury S-E forever and just call it self-respect.

Self-respect should not be confused with self-esteem, and neither with self-confidence

Self-respect has to do with who you are, the extent to which your image of yourself aligns with an image that you would admire. It has to do with how closely you follow your own code of honor. It has to do with your beingness

Self-confidence has to do with what you feel you can do. (and inadequate or excessive self-confidence can both be bad, the first will result in your not living to your full potential, the latter may result in your pulling stunts that will ruin you or get you killed)

Self-esteem has to do with what you think you deserve to have, with what you think your talents are worth and what the rest of the world should give you in exchange for them

Never confuse the three

[Skywalk]

Bingo! Jeez, I mean how many interviews with dealers and gangbangers on the streets have we seen where they say "Man, I ain't gonna be flippin burgers, unless they pay me what I'm makin out here on these streets"

They feel that lack of a high school education, inability to wake up early and be punctual for work and put in effort should not be an obstacle to their acquisition of millions. Or look at the way some scumbags thinks they are entitled to sex from a woman and when their pitiful attempt at a pass(more like a catcall) is rejected they respond with "Bitch!"

They value themselves without reason. THAT IS NOT SELF-LOATHING, it's simply excessive self-love and no counterbalance of duty or consideration to others.

[sinkspur]

Ok, but you seem to have ignored the Scientific American study of American and Asian parents and students. As the Asian students were, on the average, more successful in school and on national and international tests of ability and knowledge, this seems to cut into your criticism that we're only using criminals as the foundation for our argument.

Intelligence is relative. Without seeing the study and its particulars, I can't comment.

What questions were asked? Were populations compared? What were the measures of "success"?

Do some people think they're smart when they're actually dumb? Yeah. Does that mean they should feel worthless as human beings because they can't qualify for MIT? Does that mean that a person's overall sense of self-worth should take a nosedive because he can't make straight A's in differential calculus?

Human beings who think well of themselves are generally happier, healthier, and more optimistic.

I'm supremely self-confident, but I couldn't compete academically with a very large percentage of the population. So what?

I know what I can do and am good at, and I do that. I don't commit crimes or do other self-destructive acts that interfere with my life.

Trying to debunk the motivational movement seems misplaced, to me. Yeah, there's a lot of foolishness in some of it. But encouraging people to value what they've got and what they are, along with all the deficiencies and blemishes, is a good thing.

[edwin hubble]

What they are waking up to is that (as the study pointed out)...
Self-esteem is high among bullies, bigots, egomaniacs, and dictators.

Self restraint is a quality of maturity. (as is some measure of humility).

[Ragtime Cowgirl]

Isn't it something that adults today are relearning what their grandparents and ggggrandparents learned as children? Our extended families are precious and disappearing, along with the wisdom of the ages.