[icantbleaveit]

Any gun experts out there?

[Enterprise]

Fascinating if true. I hope someone can shed further light on this.

[elhombrelibre]

We know the round recovered is a .223 Remington or as the military says 5.56 mm. I didn't go to the Russian web site, so I don't know if they even made this bullet. I believe the lethality of a .223 isn't very good at modest ranges let alone at a mile. I'd say the effectiveness so far is largely do to well-placed shots on unsuspecting targets. In other words, a .22 caliber long rifle could do that at the right ranges. That's my two cents.

[LibKill]

Any gun experts out there?

I'm just semi-expert.

He is not using a silenced weapon or cartridges. A Cop was working a traffic accident accross the street from the last victim and heard the shot.

[ALS]

nah, won't fly. here's an excerpt:
"Of course, such loads cannot be powerful, but they are strong enough to pierce standart steel helmet at some 20 meters (60 feets) and to kill person who wear that helmet. Good enough for almost any killer!"

[MediaMole]

According to the article you reference, the handgun version is effective to 20 meters and uses a 7.62mm bullet (.30 cal). The rifle version is a standard, subsonic round effective to 400 meters and is also a 7.62mm round.

It doesn't fit what we know about the shooter.

Additionally, one witness described the shot yesterday as "like a bomb..."

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

I know that the silent but deadly method has long been used in gas warfare...this would be a whole new development.

[Grut]

The Navy developed a 12 ga. shotgun load for its SEALs using the same principle back in the 70s, but from what I remember reading about it the MV was only around 400-500 FPS. At any rate, it was dropped.

[FreePaul]

With reference to the article mentioned:

If they can accelerate the piston to bullet velocity (or higher) in the length of the case and stop it instantly without making any noise I'd be very surprised. If you could hit a bullet with a hammer hard enough to get it out of the barrel with useful velocity there should be some noise. At least they didn't mention the 150 mile per gallon carburetor.

[apochromat]

Somehow I have the feeling that taxpayer money is involved in their training, perhaps even foreign aid.

[Double Tap]

They have no give-away muzzle flash when fired - and there is no recoil. The bullets are designed to be used in rifles CIA armourers have developed. They have twice the range of ordinary sniper weapons and a killing accuracy of a mile.

This statement is not supported by the information in the article. The article clearly states that the silent rounds are not for long range, and the long range rounds are pretty much the same concept that has been used for years. Heavy bullet moving slower than sound, with a suppressed firearm.

[kellynla]

All the Russkie/Chicom assault weapons/rounds I ever encountered/dodged were 7.62 News to me if they are mfg 5.56 Semper Fi

[AdA$tra]

I am not a total expert, but have been following the story closely. The reports are that gunshots were heard at almost all the crime scenes.

The .223 is a maiming round designed to cause catastrophic wounds requiring two men to remove the wounded man therefore taking three enemy soliers off the battlefield. The rounds tumble at range and therfore rip up their human targets on impact. Consequently they are not accurate beyond 400 meters.

[M. T. Cicero II]

I'm not an expert. But I have been trained on (and shoot) weapons which fire the .223 round.

I don't think that the MD/VA sniper is using any special rounds. The .223 has a crisp report, but around big city rush-hour traffic noise, trees, buildings, etc., and say, 100 yards, it wouldn't be noticeable if you were not listening for it. (That's why the State Trouper didn't hear it.) You would see the muzzle flash if you were looking at it directly, but during the day, it's just not a problem.

As to the question of the cartridge's lethality, it's not the most lethal, and I don't think it's big enough to be US military standard issue, but as you can see from the news, it will do the job when fired from about 150 yards and placed in the torso precisely. Also, I haven't read if the bullets are hollow points, which would increase their lethality.

I shoot lots of .22 LR from pistols, semi-autos, bolts, and pumps. It's fun and cheap and just perfect for rabbits, chucks, and squirrels here on my mid-Michigan farm. The AR-15 firing the .223 is very different from the .22 LR. If you don't shoot - don't be confused! Although I am always concerned with safety, the .223 is a serious high-velocity center-fire modern cartridge while the .22 LR is just not a "thumper". This is sort of like the difference between my Chevy Cavalier and a Chevy Corvette!

[nightdriver]

"They have no give-away muzzle flash when fired - and there is no recoil. The bullets are designed to be used in rifles CIA armourers have developed. They have twice the range of ordinary sniper weapons and a killing accuracy of a mile."

"No muzzle flash?" - Maybe, but doubtful. I've seen some of the new European propellants that only have heat waves come out of the muzzle, no smoke, but with pressures as high as would be developed in this claim, "no flash" is a bit of a stretch.

"No recoil?" - Nope! Ain't buying that one. Action=reaction anywhere on the planet.

"Twice the range?" - Doubtful. That would imply at least twice the muzzle velocity which would equal FOUR TIMES the energy which would take at least FOUR TIMES the propellant and unless they're using something a lot stronger than nitrocellulose, there isn't that much spare room in the cartridge for it.

"Killing accuracy of a mile?" - Not if its coming from a .22 bore.

The ruskies are well noted for pulling fast ones like this.

[LibKill]

Oh, by the way.

The sound of a .223 (AKA 5.56mm NATO) round out of a short barrel (less than 26 inches) has to be heard to be believed.

'Loud' does not describe it well.

[TexasGunRunner]

Did you even read this first?

The first "piston in a shell" method only has an effective range of 40-60 meters. I also question long-term effectiveness of this method, as it could blow-out the primer and end up damaging the gun, or even killing the gunner.

The second "traditional" method sounds equally implausible. I can believe they developed a silenced bullet, but making it heavier to make it slower would decrease effective range, not increase it because a slower bullet gives gravity more time to act on it. The trajectory would have a more pronounced arch, not be flat shooting.

Let's look at some standard rounds. The standard .223 Remington uses a 55 grain bullet.

Shooting long-range (to 600 yards in the service rifle competition), you typically go with 69 grains or 75 grains. I have heard of people going 90 grains or thereabouts, but that is unusual. They are also using more powerful charges. The idea is to keep the projectile stable by giving it more heft. This helps it resist forces trying to destablize it. You pay for this by giving the wind and gravity more time to work on the bullet. So, you have a bullet with more terminal energy, that is stable longer, but that requires more adjustment for windage and elevation.

BTW, I also question the weights they are giving. Most AP ammo is simply a steel core in a lead pill with a copper jacket. Steel weighs less than lead, not more. The heaviest .223 round I have heard of is 90 grains. 235 or 255 grains is even extremely heavy for a .30 caliber bullet (like a .30-06 or .308). To get those weights, it would have to be extremely long and be made of a material heavier than lead...say depleted uranium. There are just too many questions to this.

I favor the theory that all the shots are in crowded, noisy areas, at the busiest of times. The ambient noise is so high, that the report of the shot is lost in the static.

I am in no way a ballistic expert, I am just a frequent shooter of .223 and .30, and a wannabe .50BMG.

[nightdriver]

"They have no give-away muzzle flash when fired - and there is no recoil. The bullets are designed to be used in rifles CIA armourers have developed. They have twice the range of ordinary sniper weapons and a killing accuracy of a mile."

"No muzzle flash?" - Maybe, but doubtful. I've seen some of the new European propellants that only have heat waves come out of the muzzle, no smoke, but with pressures as high as would be developed in this claim, "no flash" is a bit of a stretch.

"No recoil?" - Nope! Ain't buying that one. Action=reaction anywhere on the planet.

"Twice the range?" - Doubtful. That would imply at least twice the muzzle velocity which would equal FOUR TIMES the energy which would take at least FOUR TIMES the propellant and unless they're using something a lot stronger than nitrocellulose, there isn't that much spare room in the cartridge for it.

"Killing accuracy of a mile?" - Not if its coming from a .22 bore.

The ruskies are well noted for pulling fast ones like this.

[Dan Day]

They have no give-away muzzle flash when fired - and there is no recoil.

Others have pointed out the flaw in the idea that the sniper is using "silenced" bullets (or a rifle with a silencer).

As for muzzle flash, an ordinary muzzle flash is pretty hard to see in the daylight anyway, so that's not much of an issue either.

[Texas_Jarhead]

not sure how there can be no recoil

[Jeff Gordon]

Another gun related thing for the liberals to ban.