Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Sniper May be Using These: "Silent Cartridges" of USSR & Russia
world.guns.ru ^ | 2000 | world.guns.ru

Posted on 10/12/2002 11:13:14 AM PDT by icantbleaveit

Ex-TopSecret "Silent Cartridges" of USSR & Russia.

They have no give-away muzzle flash when fired - and there is no recoil. The bullets are designed to be used in rifles CIA armourers have developed. They have twice the range of ordinary sniper weapons and a killing accuracy of a mile.

http://www.world.guns.ru/ammo/sp-e.htm


TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events; Russia; US: District of Columbia; US: Maryland; US: Virginia
KEYWORDS:
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-8081-88 next last
To: icantbleaveit
All the Russkie/Chicom assault weapons/rounds I ever encountered/dodged were 7.62 News to me if they are mfg 5.56 Semper Fi
21 posted on 10/12/2002 11:43:08 AM PDT by kellynla
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: icantbleaveit
I am not a total expert, but have been following the story closely. The reports are that gunshots were heard at almost all the crime scenes.

The .223 is a maiming round designed to cause catastrophic wounds requiring two men to remove the wounded man therefore taking three enemy soliers off the battlefield. The rounds tumble at range and therfore rip up their human targets on impact. Consequently they are not accurate beyond 400 meters.
22 posted on 10/12/2002 11:44:49 AM PDT by AdA$tra
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kellynla
The AK-74 fires a 5.45mm round.
23 posted on 10/12/2002 11:45:14 AM PDT by Double Tap
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: icantbleaveit
I'm not an expert. But I have been trained on (and shoot) weapons which fire the .223 round.

I don't think that the MD/VA sniper is using any special rounds. The .223 has a crisp report, but around big city rush-hour traffic noise, trees, buildings, etc., and say, 100 yards, it wouldn't be noticeable if you were not listening for it. (That's why the State Trouper didn't hear it.) You would see the muzzle flash if you were looking at it directly, but during the day, it's just not a problem.

As to the question of the cartridge's lethality, it's not the most lethal, and I don't think it's big enough to be US military standard issue, but as you can see from the news, it will do the job when fired from about 150 yards and placed in the torso precisely. Also, I haven't read if the bullets are hollow points, which would increase their lethality.

I shoot lots of .22 LR from pistols, semi-autos, bolts, and pumps. It's fun and cheap and just perfect for rabbits, chucks, and squirrels here on my mid-Michigan farm. The AR-15 firing the .223 is very different from the .22 LR. If you don't shoot - don't be confused! Although I am always concerned with safety, the .223 is a serious high-velocity center-fire modern cartridge while the .22 LR is just not a "thumper". This is sort of like the difference between my Chevy Cavalier and a Chevy Corvette!
24 posted on 10/12/2002 11:47:23 AM PDT by M. T. Cicero II
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: icantbleaveit
"They have no give-away muzzle flash when fired - and there is no recoil. The bullets are designed to be used in rifles CIA armourers have developed. They have twice the range of ordinary sniper weapons and a killing accuracy of a mile."

"No muzzle flash?" - Maybe, but doubtful. I've seen some of the new European propellants that only have heat waves come out of the muzzle, no smoke, but with pressures as high as would be developed in this claim, "no flash" is a bit of a stretch.

"No recoil?" - Nope! Ain't buying that one. Action=reaction anywhere on the planet.

"Twice the range?" - Doubtful. That would imply at least twice the muzzle velocity which would equal FOUR TIMES the energy which would take at least FOUR TIMES the propellant and unless they're using something a lot stronger than nitrocellulose, there isn't that much spare room in the cartridge for it.

"Killing accuracy of a mile?" - Not if its coming from a .22 bore.

The ruskies are well noted for pulling fast ones like this.

25 posted on 10/12/2002 11:47:40 AM PDT by nightdriver
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LibKill
In the military we had some very old firing ranges where we sttod down in a pit and raised the targets, then flagged the position of the hit. You could hear a loud crack as the bullet passed overhead.
26 posted on 10/12/2002 11:48:13 AM PDT by RLK
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: icantbleaveit
Oh, by the way.

The sound of a .223 (AKA 5.56mm NATO) round out of a short barrel (less than 26 inches) has to be heard to be believed.

'Loud' does not describe it well.

27 posted on 10/12/2002 11:48:42 AM PDT by LibKill
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: icantbleaveit
Did you even read this first?

The first "piston in a shell" method only has an effective range of 40-60 meters. I also question long-term effectiveness of this method, as it could blow-out the primer and end up damaging the gun, or even killing the gunner.

The second "traditional" method sounds equally implausible. I can believe they developed a silenced bullet, but making it heavier to make it slower would decrease effective range, not increase it because a slower bullet gives gravity more time to act on it. The trajectory would have a more pronounced arch, not be flat shooting.

Let's look at some standard rounds. The standard .223 Remington uses a 55 grain bullet.

Shooting long-range (to 600 yards in the service rifle competition), you typically go with 69 grains or 75 grains. I have heard of people going 90 grains or thereabouts, but that is unusual. They are also using more powerful charges. The idea is to keep the projectile stable by giving it more heft. This helps it resist forces trying to destablize it. You pay for this by giving the wind and gravity more time to work on the bullet. So, you have a bullet with more terminal energy, that is stable longer, but that requires more adjustment for windage and elevation.

BTW, I also question the weights they are giving. Most AP ammo is simply a steel core in a lead pill with a copper jacket. Steel weighs less than lead, not more. The heaviest .223 round I have heard of is 90 grains. 235 or 255 grains is even extremely heavy for a .30 caliber bullet (like a .30-06 or .308). To get those weights, it would have to be extremely long and be made of a material heavier than lead...say depleted uranium. There are just too many questions to this.

I favor the theory that all the shots are in crowded, noisy areas, at the busiest of times. The ambient noise is so high, that the report of the shot is lost in the static.

I am in no way a ballistic expert, I am just a frequent shooter of .223 and .30, and a wannabe .50BMG.

28 posted on 10/12/2002 11:49:29 AM PDT by TexasGunRunner
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: icantbleaveit
"They have no give-away muzzle flash when fired - and there is no recoil. The bullets are designed to be used in rifles CIA armourers have developed. They have twice the range of ordinary sniper weapons and a killing accuracy of a mile."

"No muzzle flash?" - Maybe, but doubtful. I've seen some of the new European propellants that only have heat waves come out of the muzzle, no smoke, but with pressures as high as would be developed in this claim, "no flash" is a bit of a stretch.

"No recoil?" - Nope! Ain't buying that one. Action=reaction anywhere on the planet.

"Twice the range?" - Doubtful. That would imply at least twice the muzzle velocity which would equal FOUR TIMES the energy which would take at least FOUR TIMES the propellant and unless they're using something a lot stronger than nitrocellulose, there isn't that much spare room in the cartridge for it.

"Killing accuracy of a mile?" - Not if its coming from a .22 bore.

The ruskies are well noted for pulling fast ones like this.

29 posted on 10/12/2002 11:49:45 AM PDT by nightdriver
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RLK
In the military we had some very old firing ranges where we sttod down in a pit and raised the targets, then flagged the position of the hit. You could hear a loud crack as the bullet passed overhead.

Very true. I worked in the 'target butts' every time I went to re-qualify (USMC-9 years).

I could tell the difference between a miss and a hit on the target. A hit was a little louder and paper fragments would come down on us.

30 posted on 10/12/2002 11:51:19 AM PDT by LibKill
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Double Tap
So? The article is about a "silent" 7.62. The "sniper" is using a 5.56
31 posted on 10/12/2002 11:51:58 AM PDT by kellynla
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: M. T. Cicero II
"...it wouldn't be noticeable if you were not listening for it."

Let me rephrase that: It might not be identifiable as a rifle shot against the back-ground noise. Depends on many factors. But it would not be like firing that first shot at 6:00 AM, in the woods, on a November morning.
32 posted on 10/12/2002 11:52:45 AM PDT by M. T. Cicero II
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: AdA$tra
The M16 originally had a rifle twist rate of 1 twist in 14", or 1-14". This caused the bullet to barely stabilize and thus when it stuck something, it would tumble. Over the years the military has changed the twist, first to 1-12", then 1-9" and finally if using the NATO spec 69gr. bullet, 1-7". All this in an attempt to improve accuracy, which was never a problem to begin with.

Most of the rifles on the market today, and in the recent past have between a 1-12" and 1-7" twist, and are accurate well past 400 yards or meters.

33 posted on 10/12/2002 11:53:11 AM PDT by Double Tap
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: AdA$tra
The .223 is a maiming round designed to cause catastrophic wounds requiring two men to remove the wounded man therefore taking three enemy soliers off the battlefield. The rounds tumble at range and therfore rip up their human targets on impact. Consequently they are not accurate beyond 400 meters.

This was true of the old .55 grain M16 rounds.

The current rounds are good past 500 meters.

And, it never applied to bolt-action varmint rifles.

There are many factors to consider, rate of barrel twist, weight of bullet, and so on.

I may be wrong but most of these murders seem to me to have been within 300 meters.

That's an easy shot with a .223 (5.56mm NATO)

34 posted on 10/12/2002 11:56:14 AM PDT by LibKill
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: icantbleaveit
They have no give-away muzzle flash when fired - and there is no recoil.

Others have pointed out the flaw in the idea that the sniper is using "silenced" bullets (or a rifle with a silencer).

As for muzzle flash, an ordinary muzzle flash is pretty hard to see in the daylight anyway, so that's not much of an issue either.

35 posted on 10/12/2002 12:00:47 PM PDT by Dan Day
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kellynla
I've shot a lot of Russian made .223/5.56 ammo. They make a lot of decent grade commercial ammo and it's cheap. Available from a lot of ammo suppliers here in the USA.
36 posted on 10/12/2002 12:02:07 PM PDT by FreePaul
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: icantbleaveit
not sure how there can be no recoil
37 posted on 10/12/2002 12:03:41 PM PDT by Texas_Jarhead
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: nightdriver
"Killing accuracy of a mile?" - Not if its coming from a .22 bore.

Exactly. Just because the box says it can travel/kill up to a mile away does not mean you can target something a mile away and reliable hit it.

Once the projectile goes subsonic, it will become erratic, quickly destablize and plow into the earth.

In the standard service rifle, we shoot at 600 yards. The .223s are iffy at that; which is why shooters go to more stable bullets, heavier and longer barrels, and dial-in a tremendous amount of elevation - the normal "come up" from 200 yards to 1000 yards is 36 minutes - 360 inches!!!! @ 1000 yards.

Most scopes don't even have that much elevation in them.

At our competitioin, we still use the pits - you can even hear the .223 projectiles at supersonic speeds flying over your head. We necessarily wear ear protection.

38 posted on 10/12/2002 12:05:19 PM PDT by TexasGunRunner
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: FreePaul
Yes, but that crappy Wolf ammo in non-reloadable steel cases is certainly not this super secret, silent, defy physics type of ammo.

It is cheap, it does go bang - so it qualifies real well for plinking and staying in practice on a budget.

40 posted on 10/12/2002 12:07:40 PM PDT by TexasGunRunner
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-8081-88 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson