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To: Rocksalt
"it's the majority that is exercising tyranny over drug freedoms, not the Supreme Court."

OK-How is the majority imposing "tyranny" over you? [...] It's the feds who are messing with the people down in Mendocino Co. who have passed laws permitting citizens to grow weed on their property.

You have been arguing in support of anti-drug laws because they reflect the will of the majority. For the majority to restrict acts that harm nobody else is tyrannical.

"How come no precedent cases are enabling drug suspects to use get off with this defense then?"(my comment)

"Because the liberal-dominated judiciary loves 90% of Congress' unconstitutional acts and is unwilling to expose their unconstitutionality by doing what's right in regard to drugs."

You're telling me that not one case would have been able to set precedent in the whole country?

Nothing like that. I'm saying that the liberal-dominated judiciary can't find the federal War On Some Drugs unconstitutional without acknowledging the relevance of the Tenth Amendment or the proper limits of the Interstate Commerce Clause---which would reveal the unconstitutionality of most liberal federal programs.

Please cite what part of the constitution protects the right to use drugs?

The Constitution grants the federal government no authority over the intrastate making, distributing, selling, buying, or using of drugs.

"If a simple majority thinks you drink too much at home, should we decide to make the distribution of alcohol as limited as possible?"

You can do whatever you want in your own home.We agree there I believe.The federal goverment limits who sells alcohol because it provides some level of control.

The feds have no such authority. States should regulate drugs and alcohol in that way.

Maybe this approach would work with narcotics as well-I doubt it though,as they are different animals,which you refuse to admit.

You refuse to prove it.

"At least as much instinct and intuition has an element of bias. Your claim remains unsupported."

My claim that research often proves what gets it funded needs no support.

Beside the point---it doesn't support for your claim that "Sometimes instinct and intuitions turn out to be more meaningful than scientific findings," since instinct and intuition are at least as biased.

I would say it is not right to punish someone for something they might do.But do you deny it is reasonable to take reasonable means to prevent someone from doing harm to another? Example:DUII arrests?

DUI laws are based on the public's ownership of the roads; it's legal to drive dunk on one's own property.

"So banning the distribution of alcohol would be OK as long as people were permitted to brew or ferment their own?"

I am not in favor of banning commercially produced alcohol.

Then there is no sound basis to favor banning commercially produced drugs.

"You already have the Drug Warrior Freepers' skill at dodging questions. The question is, in what way does it diminish my standing as a conservative to "end up touting the same line as many dyed in the wool liberals on drug legalization"?"

I think your question provides it's own answer.

False. Quit dodging the question.

"It shouldn't (because the Constitution grants it no such authority) but states should---because dynamite can harm others with out any human intervention, e.g., from a spark due to faulty wiring. Drugs, in sharp contrast, cannot be in any way involved in harm unless a person uses them---and even then, the only cause-and-effect link between any drug and violence is for the drug alcohol (as the US Department of Justice has stated)."

OK-How about US citizens who are muslims fundamentalists?

What about them---are you suggesting we imprison Muslim fundamentalists because they MIGHT commit violence?

I have not heard any links between dynamite possession and violence-why should the states regulate possession of it either?

I just answered that: "because dynamite can harm others with out any human intervention, e.g., from a spark due to faulty wiring."

I don't care what the DOJ maintains

The enemies of freedom seldom care about facts.

"my moral fundamentals are not based on my instincts and gut feelings."

Anything can be justified if we have the will to justify it.

YOU may be able to justify anything---and your opposition to drug freedom suggests that's the case---but I can't.

"No, nor Sean's Tavern; I support zoning laws (at least for the time being) as a good approximation of what free people would voluntarily achieve through easements and covenants."

So you are admitting you would not want to live next to Abdul's? This tells me something right there.

<yawn> Will you be sharing your insight, or just gloating over it?

"Rubbish---one simply notices how high one gets with each use. As tolerance slowly builds, one slowly increases one's dose."

Same DOJ website as you cited-reported "the number of drug related emergency room episodes increased from 323,100 in 1978,to an all time high of 638,484 in 2001.

<snicker> ALL emergency room episodes are air-related---let's ban air.

"Excellent! If every opponent of drug freedom would do their homework, there would soon be no opponents of drug freedom."

Speaking of homework,you should read report # NOJ188745 on the DOJ website you cited earlier.Seems as though they think MDMA is some pretty nasty medicine.

So is alcohol. I notice that page says nothing about violence.

128 posted on 11/18/2002 12:55:57 PM PST by MrLeRoy
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To: MrLeRoy
"For the majority to restrict acts that harm nobody else is tyrannical." I agree you should be able to do whatever you want,in your own home,as long as your not harming others.That is a non-argument. "I'm saying that the liberal-dominated judiciary can't find the federal War On Some Drugs unconstitutional without acknowledging the relevance of the Tenth Amendment" Yes I agree here too. As an example of this I would say the situation in Mendicino Co. is a good example.As well as California's medical pot law,and how the feds have raided medical pot facilitys,ignoring Calif. laws,enacted by a vote of the people. "The Constitution grants the federal government no authority over the intrastate making, distributing, selling, buying, or using of drugs." Could you explain this a little more in detail? "The feds have no such authority. States should regulate drugs and alcohol in that way." I favor state regulation over federal control,didn't Arizona vote on drug legalization not long ago? I realize you feel a majority should not excercise control over individuals,but a vote of the people seemed like a good reasonable idea to me. Different animals? I refuse to prove it? How many people OD on alcohol,and how many OD on narcotics? Alcohol poisoning is not a really common form of death. "DUI laws are based on the public's ownership of the roads; it's legal to drive dunk on one's own property." I'm not saying that people should not be able to do what they want on their own property.No argument there-Fine-if people want to go to the state narcotics store,score some junk,and take it home and shoot up responsibly,great. A penalty of life in prison for furnishing minors with narcotics would be an acceptable addition to ofset the possible dangers. "Then there is no sound basis to favor banning commercially produced drugs." Maybe legally there isn't sound basis.Common sense tells me leaglized narcotics would be a can of worms. "The question is, in what way does it diminish my standing as a conservative to "end up touting the same line as many dyed in the wool liberals on drug legalization"? I understand the basis you base your argument on.I can see it is true that the federal goverment has no right to wage the WOD.But the actual ramifications of legalized drugs in my opinion must be examined from a position of the actual effect this would have.I think your arguments are actually much more meaningful than the typical liberal's which would also include passionate bleeding heart stuff about prisoners suffering due to the WOD. I commend your quest for freedoms,and I can clearly see you are not a liberal.I just don't favor easy access to narcotics for the general public,and you know this already.We need to find a way to end the WOD,but not open up the floodgates at the same time. "What about them---are you suggesting we imprison Muslim fundamentalists because they MIGHT commit violence?" No-Muslim fundamentalists possessing dynamite illegally,yes. Seems there are alot of freepers out there who would favor a general round-up of Muslims,but I think internment would be a bad idea. "I just answered that: "because dynamite can harm others with out any human intervention, e.g., from a spark due to faulty wiring." I'll accept that,and admit defeat on that one,but by that logic shouldn't gas ovens be prohibited too? "I don't care what the DOJ maintains" "The enemies of freedom seldom care about facts" Well from reading that website it seems facts point out the number of drug related hospital "incidents" is enormous. "YOU may be able to justify anything---and your opposition to drug freedom suggests that's the case---but I can't." Your perception that I am opposed to "drug freedoms" is false.I am opposed to the ramifications of providing the general public with easy access to narcotics that is true.I feel you are unrealistic,that's true too. "So you are admitting you would not want to live next to Abdul's? This tells me something right there." " Will you be sharing your insight, or just gloating over it?" Just seeing here that if even you don't want Abdul's heroin emporium next door,most people won't want it within 3500 miles of them. "Same DOJ website as you cited-reported "the number of drug related emergency room episodes increased from 323,100 in 1978,to an all time high of 638,484 in 2001." I see you can blow off the facts and figures as easily as you can cite them. "So is alcohol. I notice that page says nothing about violence.(refering to MDMA page) No,it talks more about destroyed minds.If the only side effect of MDMA was people hugging each other and holding pacifiers in their mouths,it wouldn't be much to worry about.I can't see how you can offer this stuff even one bit of support.
129 posted on 11/19/2002 7:44:44 PM PST by Rocksalt
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