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To: MrLeRoy
"Supreme Court?"

Who ends up making a goodly number of the decisions affecting our lives? I never said you supported the power of the supreme court to decide what you can put in your body.Who ends up interpreting the constitution? Not you or me.I'm saying I'd rather let a majority decide these decisions,including drug reform,than the supreme court jesters.

"The Constitution grants the federal government no authority over the intrastate making, distributing, selling, buying, or using of drugs."

How come no precedent cases are enabling drug suspects to use get off with this defense then?

"If a simple majority thinks you drink too much at home, should we decide you can't "handle" the freedom to choose how much to drink at home?"

No-and I feel this should apply to drugs as well. I'm not going to try and mandate how much dope you can shoot in your own home.But I feel the distribution of narcotics should be as limited as possible due to many different concerns.

"Then there is no support for your claim that "Sometimes instinct and intuitions turn out to be more meaningful than scientific findings."

I'm not going to dispute that oftentimes scientific findings are quite meaningful.Some of my own research is quite valid,meaningful and cutting edge data.I'm not proporting to be an expert on every kind of research,but I know enough to tell you much research done in this world is funded by someone,and often has specific intentions,which may add an element of bias.Make one set of findings,get more money,make another,lose funding.Besides,how can you dispute that I have psychic powers?

"The Constitution grants the federal government no authority to restrict the freedoms of adults because of POSSIBLE infringements. As for the rest, it's fundamental ethics---you don't punish someone for what they MIGHT do."

Cite specifics if you could please.Fundamental ethics-does god interpret those rulings,or Scalia?

"And the sound facts do not support restricting adults' freedom to use drugs."

I agree-but I would not support anyone being permitted to distribute narcotics,feds,private industry,or moon monkeys.Your black and white way of addressing this problem has led to myopia in that you ignore the big ugly picture drug use paints.If it was as simple as citizens simply possessing drugs in their own home,produced by themselves,it would be alot easier.That's the beauty of medical pot-anyone can grow it,and this is one of the reasons the drug company's and the feds hate the idea.They can't control it.If it was as simple as you sitting in your lazyboy snorting a line of coke and not affecting anyone,I'd say have a good time.You have the right to do anything you want with your own body-that's obvious.

"So what? Should I stop wearing pants because liberals wear them?"

The pants are fine.Lose the tye-died shirt though.(See-I'm starting to get this down-you might make a freeper out of me yet)

"Slow-acting poisons and fast-acting poisons are both poisons."

Yeah,but there's a big difference between black powder and nitro glycerine.Why should the federal goverment be able to restrict someone's rights to possess dynamite? Could it be potential harm? By your logic,fundamental ethics would permit virtually anything.

" How would I feel about selling John a kitchen knife that killed Jill? What does any of that have to do with whether the product should be legal?"

Because I'm interested in hearing your instincts and gut feelings about what you would be doing.Instead of seeing the issue in black and white terms,this will enable us to see if your moral fundamentals will allow you to sell the stuff.And you totally ducked the question........... That was question #1-number 2 is: If your permit gets denied for the narcotics store(since you have too many firearms around your house)are you happy that Abdul has opened up Abdul's House of Heroin next door to your house?

"The public gets to say what happens on its property, just like I get to say what happens on my property."

But why does it matter what arbitirary line is crossed if I'm not harming persons or property?

"Didn't you cite facts that pointed out aspirin causes more OD's than narcotics?"

"No---and I doubt that's true on a per-user basis."

I can't cite figures on how many people ODed on prescription drugs-don't quite a few bite the dust after combining prescription drugs and alcohol?

"That's utter nonsense---tolerance does not grow appreciably during the course of a single drug-use episode, but builds over multiple episodes."

Not in a single episode-what I meant is over time it is difficult to judge how tolerant to a substance a person has become.

"My real response would be that I think alcohol and narcotics are completely different animals."

"You have yet to produce evidence that supports that claim."

Guess I've got some homework to do to further my arguments ........I'm confident I can produce some data that suggests my assertions are true.



















122 posted on 11/14/2002 7:43:58 PM PST by Rocksalt
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To: Rocksalt
I never said you supported the power of the supreme court to decide what you can put in your body. [...] I'm saying I'd rather let a majority decide these decisions,including drug reform,than the supreme court jesters.

Tell you what---if the Supreme Court declares that drug use is mandatory, I'll be on your side against them. Barring that, it's the majority that is exercising tyranny over drug freedoms, not the Supreme Court.

"The Constitution grants the federal government no authority over the intrastate making, distributing, selling, buying, or using of drugs."

How come no precedent cases are enabling drug suspects to use get off with this defense then?

Because the liberal-dominated judiciary loves 90% of Congress' unconstitutional acts and is unwilling to expose their unconstitutionality by doing what's right in regard to drugs.

"If a simple majority thinks you drink too much at home, should we decide you can't "handle" the freedom to choose how much to drink at home?"

No-and I feel this should apply to drugs as well. I'm not going to try and mandate how much dope you can shoot in your own home. But I feel the distribution of narcotics should be as limited as possible

If a simple majority thinks you drink too much at home, should we decide to make the distribution of alcohol as limited as possible?

"Then there is no support for your claim that "Sometimes instinct and intuitions turn out to be more meaningful than scientific findings."

much research done in this world is funded by someone,and often has specific intentions,which may add an element of bias.

At least as much instinct and intuition has an element of bias. Your claim remains unsupported.

"it's fundamental ethics---you don't punish someone for what they MIGHT do."

Fundamental ethics-does god interpret those rulings

If you like; if you don't like, then natural law. Do you deny that it's wrong to punish someone for what they MIGHT do?

If it was as simple as citizens simply possessing drugs in their own home,produced by themselves,it would be alot easier.

So banning the distribution of alcohol would be OK as long as people were permitted to brew or ferment their own?

"So what? Should I stop wearing pants because liberals wear them?"

The pants are fine.Lose the tye-died shirt though.(See-I'm starting to get this down-you might make a freeper out of me yet)

You already have the Drug Warrior Freepers' skill at dodging questions. The question is, in what way does it diminish my standing as a conservative to "end up touting the same line as many dyed in the wool liberals on drug legalization"?

Why should the federal goverment be able to restrict someone's rights to possess dynamite?

It shouldn't (because the Constitution grants it no such authority) but states should---because dynamite can harm others with out any human intervention, e.g., from a spark due to faulty wiring. Drugs, in sharp contrast, cannot be in any way involved in harm unless a person uses them---and even then, the only cause-and-effect link between any drug and violence is for the drug alcohol (as the US Department of Justice has stated).

" How would I feel about selling John a kitchen knife that killed Jill? What does any of that have to do with whether the product should be legal?"

Because I'm interested in hearing your instincts and gut feelings about what you would be doing. [...] this will enable us to see if your moral fundamentals will allow you to sell the stuff.

Your question is founded on a false premise---my moral fundamentals are not based on my instincts and gut feelings.

If your permit gets denied for the narcotics store(since you have too many firearms around your house)are you happy that Abdul has opened up Abdul's House of Heroin next door to your house?

No, nor Sean's Tavern; I support zoning laws (at least for the time being) as a good approximation of what free people would voluntarily achieve through easements and covenants.

"The public gets to say what happens on its property, just like I get to say what happens on my property."

But why does it matter what arbitirary line is crossed if I'm not harming persons or property?

The public can be as arbitrary as it wants in restricting the use of the public's property, just as I may be as arbitrary as I want in restricting the use of my property.

I can't cite figures on how many people ODed on prescription drugs-don't quite a few bite the dust after combining prescription drugs and alcohol?

Could be---but that has no bearing whatsoever on whether stabilizing drug purity decreases ODs.

"That's utter nonsense---tolerance does not grow appreciably during the course of a single drug-use episode, but builds over multiple episodes."

Not in a single episode-what I meant is over time it is difficult to judge how tolerant to a substance a person has become.

Rubbish---one simply notices how high one gets with each use. As tolerance slowly builds, one slowly increases one's dose.

"My real response would be that I think alcohol and narcotics are completely different animals."

"You have yet to produce evidence that supports that claim."

Guess I've got some homework to do to further my arguments ........I'm confident I can produce some data that suggests my assertions are true.

Excellent! If every opponent of drug freedom would do their homework, there would soon be no opponents of drug freedom.

124 posted on 11/15/2002 11:21:43 AM PST by MrLeRoy
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