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To: American in Israel
AiI, a fascinating pattern is developing here. Your personal evidence from gold prospecting is interesting, although I have several questions about that. You also have a significant personal medical recovery after a child prayed for you. Fine. Those are probably significant events for you, but I suspect you're throwing out a lot of contrary facts in your rush to assign significance to them.

But that's fine. What totally blows your general credibility with me is how you throw in all these other patently false and easily refuted canards into the mix: Frog DNA being closer to human than is chimp DNA. Cancer caused by the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, which by the way refutes evolution. Doctors prescribe antibiotics for cancer. I suspect that these statements are there to rationally support your conviction that supernatural intervention exists.

I'm psychologizing, I know. I probably shouldn't do that. Instead I should methodically discuss your DNA/cancer/2LoT claims one by one and hope that you'll see why they're false. But I really do suspect that they're there only for their assistance in rationalizing your belief in the supernatural.

OK, a couple questions re the gold: I have never prospected, though I've read a little about it and I've always thought it'd be a gas to try.

  1. I assume you know that the Placerita area was already mined of placer gold in the 1840's. What makes you think the 2 canyons you found had not already been gone over back then? IOW, can you tell how old a placer deposit is just by looking at it? How do you know the deposits in those 2 canyons weren't actually laid down after the 1840's?
  2. How old were the layers the gold was deposited into? I know you can't date sedimentary deposits directly, but what do mainstream, godless, hurtlin-down-the-road-to-perdition geologists say about when the placer deposits were laid down?
  3. When you say, in #299, "a high concentration on the upward side of the entire canyon walls and NOTHING on the down ward side", what do you mean by "upward side" and "downward side"?
  4. Do you have any training in geology or hydrodynamics? I.e. what background knowledge leads you to conclude that a 3500' high flood is a good explanation for the deposits? (i.e. is it something more than the feeling that "it looks like a sluicebox"?)

As for your leg...

  1. How much shorter was your shorter leg?
  2. How long was it from the last measurement (say, by an MD) that showed the original difference in length, to the first measurement that verified that they were the same length? IOW how long did it take for the shorter one to grow? The reason I ask for time between measurements is, I just recently bought reading glasses for the first time, and I thought my reading problems came at me suddenly, like over 6 months. Yet when I use the glasses I can see the kind of details of close-up things that I could only see when I was a girl. In retrospect, I suspect that my near-eyesight had been deteriorating so slowly over the years that I just never noticed it.
  3. Have you ever done any kind of exercises/therapy on your shorter leg to lengthen it? Were you doing it at the time it got longer?
  4. Had other people prayed for your leg to get longer at other times, when your leg stayed short?
  5. What exactly did your MD say was making your leg shorter? Were your bones shorter, or did you have shorter tendons or muscles, or what?
  6. Was this a congenital defect or did it show up later in life?

415 posted on 10/08/2002 11:49:07 PM PDT by jennyp
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To: jennyp; American in Israel
Uh-oh, it seems that mainstream geology has an explanation for why it looks like the gold was laid down by water that was much higher than the surrounding canyon walls:

Brief Explanation of the Geology of the Santa Clarita Valley  

The Santa Clarita Valley has a very diverse geologic history and makeup. Fossils abound here, as well as gold, howlite, and oil. During the mid to late 1800's, there was gold fever here. Acton, Soledad City (now Ravenna), and Placerita Canyon were the hubs of the mining activities. Only Acton remains as a gold producing area today. There was an actual gold rush in Placerita Canyon starting in 1842 - six years before the discovery at Sutter's Mill. Oil was also discovered here during the same time period. During the 1870's and 1880's, oil was king here. Mentryville, a town about 3 miles west of Newhall, was an oil boom town. It was founded in the mid 1870's. Oil is still being pumped from the ground around here, only now the main operations are in Placerita Canyon and near Castaic.

Most of the valley is composed of sedimentary rocks ranging from 30 million years old to about 1.8 million years old. The valley floor is composed of alluvium from rivers and streams. Some of the oldest rocks in Southern California are located just five miles from here. They are a part of the San Gabriel Basement Complex and have been dated to about 1.7 billion years old. However, the last five million years here are the ones I will concentrate on, as this is when this valley began to take its present form.

During the Pliocene Epoch, much of this area was covered by the Pacific Ocean. It was shallow and was teeming with life. The life that once was here has left numerous fossils. These fossils include gastropods, clams, oysters, plants, and even fish. The waters that were here were warm but not warm enough to support more tropical forms of life such as coral. This whole area underwent drastic changes starting at around 1.5-2 million years ago. All the way up the coast, mountains were forming. These mountains exist today as the Coast Ranges. The sea receded and the land rose from below sea level to over 5000 feet in some places. This valley also took on a very different appearance. During the early Pleistocene, the Santa Clarita Valley was a much broader and shallower valley. The uplift that help to create the Coast Ranges also caused the dissection of the older valley floor creating the many stream terraces visible today along the sides of the canyons. Not all the mountains were formed around this time, however. The San Gabriel Mountains started forming 60 million years earlier during the Paleocene Epoch. Most of their uplift has occurred only in the last three million years.


418 posted on 10/09/2002 12:12:33 AM PDT by jennyp
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To: jennyp
Frog DNA being closer to human than is chimp DNA.
Just was a long article from a non religious source that was discussing the findings. Wish I had it for you.

Cancer caused by the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, which by the way refutes evolution.
Cancer is a defect in the dna, it is a disorder, its form is disorder and therefor is a great parallel with a bit of irony I figured.
Just think, cancer is a form of mutation from normal, all it ever makes is tumors, never makes a FORM, but a lack of form.

The comment on the second law of thermodynamics is that things go from order to disorder. How then is the law of evolution causing order from disorder? Seriously, an ant is an accident?

Doctors prescribe antibiotics for cancer. I suspect that these statements are there to rationally support your conviction that supernatural intervention exists.

No, I just did not include the sarcasm tag. Doctors prescribe anti-biotics as the miracle drug for the ills they do not understand. Gosh bread mold is smart huh? -grin- I got an odd way of thinking, chalk it up to my indian part. Kinda oriental.

I'm psychologizing, I know. I probably shouldn't do that.

By all means do, it is valid science. Instead I should methodically discuss your DNA/cancer/2LoT claims one by one and hope that you'll see why they're false.

How about you and I just discuss and we see what comes up? Why load the dice?

OK, a couple questions re the gold: I have never prospected, though I've read a little about it and I've always thought it'd be a gas to try.

It is! Do it!!! You only live life once, do it all!

I assume you know that the Placerita area was already mined of placer gold in the 1840's. What makes you think the 2 canyons you found had not already been gone over back then?

First, a good prospector reads the signs of what they did before, why reinvent the wheel.

Second, if you find a nugget, you know one thing. Nobody ever found it before you. Nobody throws them back.

IOW, can you tell how old a placer deposit is just by looking at it?

Answered before I got to this message. First the coloration of the rocks is different in every stream. It tells you its source and era. Now in southern California the rock difference is rare, but in northern calif it is much easier to see as there is not near as much placer. But if you find the "pretty" rocks north or south, pay attention. The rocks tend to be crystalline, the coloration almost mossy with not just color but pattern too. And there is a depth, you can see into the rock to see the pattern. Often the rocks have a shattered pattern in the rock itself that look almost like tempered glass fractures. Tends to make the rocks "light up" in the sunlight compared to the drab, modern era rocks.

You can date them by the north south stream bed vs the east to west run. The California plate shifted during the flood and tilted towards the sea. The old days the streams flowed primarily north south.

One couple found just a circle of placer in the side of a river bank it was where the modern streambed cut right through a north south bed high up on the hillside. I saw a nugget bigger than my hand over a half an inch think come out of there. Ugly thing. It had a real brassy look and poor looking form. But they sure did not complain.

Second the coloration of the gold and its shape tells you which vein it came from. No vein is the same. All veins have different amounts of other metals, and just the slightest touch of other metals changes the color. I have seen gold from chocolate brown to penny red, tree green and almost a pale sky blue.

Gold does not travel far as you think unless it is pinhead size. If you can see a shape with the naked eye, you are within a mile of where it came from. You can follow that color and that shape (rough, spiky, globular, crystalline, stringy) and estimate the distance by how placered or sanded down it is.

How do you know the deposits in those 2 canyons weren't actually laid down after the 1840's?

The water flow was horizontal to the canyon flow, that is why when the water slowed down on the from side of the flow as the flow went over the canyon (water fast and narrow goes over a wide spot and it will slow directly related to the width of the increase. The gold "rains" out of the suddenly slower flow. By the time it begins to narrow again on the other side of the canyon the heavies are gone.

If the flow was over the entire canyon county area, it would have made the papers...

How old were the layers the gold was deposited into? I know you can't date sedimentary deposits directly, but what do mainstream, godless, hurtlin-down-the-road-to-perdition geologists say about when the placer deposits were laid down?

ROTFL! They havent got a clue just like the story posted. They spend a whole lot of time in school and precious little on earth. They are determined to date things by what they are next to and all they are next to is rocks, rocks and more rocks. You have to see it to believe it. The stream beds are not flat things, they look like someone mixed a bowl of spaghetti. In placerita canyon if you go to work it (yeah, I know its illegal, but park rangers go home at night -grin-) you find a short exposed bed with a pay streak and work it with a pan and perhaps a 3 foot hand sluice box for about 15 feet before it is over cut and replaced by another 15 to 30 foot section. Crazy! Nice gold, would make a heck of a great park for city folks to pan but the government is kinda funny about gold. They have spent a couple of mill building a bogus count the butterfly park to protect about a quarter of a mill in placer gold from ever being worked by a few thousand people with a gold pan. Never enough gold to pay for the gas, Sad... Lots of fun for a lot of people...

When you say, in #299, "a high concentration on the upward side of the entire canyon walls and NOTHING on the down ward side", what do you mean by "upward side" and "downward side"?

The water was flowing strong enough to shred mountains and make gravel of them. And it was pushing that gravel far enough that all pieces were ground round, no sharp edges. And it was deep enough to flow OVER the canyons. When it flowed in the direction of the canyons it washed through them at full speed. But when it flowed contra-wise to the canyon flow it caused slow downs on the lower part of the water flow as the canyons acted like giant bars in a sluice box. Those canyons are rare, and if you look for them on the map the gold concentration is many times that of the other canyons.

When it those canyons you find huge placer chunks of magnetite, a reddish or black natural chunks of solid iron complete with crystals. It even ground those round. When you find chunks of that piled up you are in a heavy concentrate zone. You are getting warm. Normally you find chunks the size of say a dime to a half dollar piece in your sluice box and you know you are in the right area. I have seen solid areas in streambeds of magnetite some pieces the size of baseballs in the contra-canyons.

It is not from iron veins as the stones are placered. That does not happen quick with magnetite, the stuff is TOUGH. A stream flow that is strong enough to push magnetite rocks is RIPPIN. Regular rocks are like chunks of wood compared to them.

>I> Do you have any training in geology or hydrodynamics? I.e. what background knowledge leads you to conclude that a 3500' high flood is a good explanation for the deposits? (i.e. is it something more than the feeling that "it looks like a sluice box"?)

I suspect I have explained it enough above. If I am at 3000 feet, and the canyon was Over flooded sideways strong enough to move boulders the size of cars, the water is at least 3000 foot high. Not rocket science.

As for training, I read, a lot, and have spent a few thousand hours studying in the field how water flows and moves things. I lived for over a year off of what I could dig out of the streambeds. I know hydrodynamics. As for your leg...

How much shorter was your shorter leg?
One half inch. Easy to see. Have your hubby check yours. Sit in a chair with a solid square back with your hips all the way back firmly pressed into the chair back.
Put both feet out in front of you straight legged and let him pick up your ankles in each hand holding your feet together. Line up the heels of your shoes and the soles of the shoes. Any difference will be readily seen. Any difference will cause back problems.

In my case the back problem was more from the blown out bottom disk, A price I paid grunting large boulders around in stream beds in my youth... -grin- When I got older I learned where to dig instead of digging under big rocks, like the books say.

How long was it from the last measurement (say, by an MD) that showed the original difference in length, to the first measurement that verified that they were the same length?

3 months, chiropractor. The first one years ago prescribed the shoe prosthesis, It did help. One month after prayer and the leg difference is barely noticeable now. (Hey it was a kid, and I was his first patient!)

IOW how long did it take for the shorter one to grow?
Around 7 minutes. I could not feel the growth at all. But for a couple of days I tended to drag the right foot when I walked. I was not used to the difference.

The guy that was teaching about healing prayer in church (he was a visitor) said if you have to pray for a back problem check the legs first. Most back problems are rooted in leg length problems. Fix the legs first then pray for the back. He used children to show it is not what the kids do, it is what God does. After the leg thing he had the child place his hand over my lower back and command the disk to come back inline in Jesus name. That took about 10 minutes. The kid would, as instructed, pray the prayer commanding the healing by the authority of Christ, wait a bit and ask if it felt better or different. It took three times and then it actually did begin to feel better. I had the kid keep at it then, I know a pay streak when I hit one.

3 weeks later I got the chance to stand in line for a plane ticket adjustment over an hour. I STOOD for over an hour. I got to the ticket line counter and I was about jumping for joy at how long I had to stand. I was so nice to the ticket counter lady that she looked at me in shock! My wife kept offering to stand for me so I could sit but NO WAY! I was diggin it! I was quite the proof for me.

My Chiropractor had warned me that one side of my back had badly atrophied muscles in my compensation for the disk and the leg length. It took a long time for my back to build up. I still have some pain 2 months later, but it is different and in a different spot. There is a lot of difference between muscle pain and back pain.

Have you ever done any kind of exercises/therapy on your shorter leg to lengthen it? Were you doing it at the time it got longer?

Sitting in a pew with my back firmly placed against the pew back.

There is no therapy short of a bone splice to lengthen leg bones that I know of.

Had other people prayed for your leg to get longer at other times, when your leg stayed short?

No, first time anybody paid any attention to it in prayer. I just never brought it up, figured it was no big deal. The disk was the big problem to me. But I have had quite a few people pray for my back pain. Pretty much nothing happened. Some times it felt better but never was healed. Kinda the difference between and aspirin and surgery. One makes it feel better, the other fixes it.

What exactly did your MD say was making your leg shorter? Were your bones shorter, or did you have shorter tendons or muscles, or what?

The one that verified that they were the same length or very close examined my shoes to verify that they were once different lengths. He said He could see by the heel of my shoes that my leg was shorter, but my leg difference was very minor. He thought it very curious and interesting, but then He was not a Christian. He did not praise God or anything. Did look pretty puzzled.

Was this a congenital defect or did it show up later in life?

congenital. Was just the way I was born.

Look, all I can say is I can pick up and carry two 70 pound suitcases now. I could not pick up one without paying for it for days before. I can stand upright for over an hour without my legs going numb now. Before, about 5 minutes and my legs on the sides below my hips felt like lead. I think you could have stuck a pin in my leg and I might not have felt it.

To be honest on the second day I figured enjoy it now, hypnosis only lasts 72 hours. On the fourth day I started getting a clue that this was no fly bye night thing. I was actually healed. I am still waiting for the other shoe to drop. It never has. It is like I got my life back. How did it work? All I know is a little child commanded that my leg grow and my back be healed in the name of Jesus. It did. And the child is just one of the Church goers kids. I watched that kid grow up from a baby to about 7 years old when he and about six others around his age were picked at random to demonstrate. I feel like the blind man that was asked by the Religious leaders how did you get healed. He said I don't know how, I just know I can see and a guy called Jesus did it.

Since then I have tried it myself. It worked! I gotta go back and fine tune the guy, he was much worse than me. His doctor said his leg is still too short. I checked up on him last week and I could not see any difference in length. But his lower spine was so badly curved before it was sunk an easy inch deep. While I prayed for it, it raised before my eyes a half an inch. (That took 15 full minutes) I got a half an inch to go.

He said he was sleeping much better and had much less pain. He also said his blood sugar count was much more stable now. (We prayed for that too)

How the heck do you fool a blood sugar meter? I have determined that I will keep at it till he either stops improving or is right on the mark. I want to see just how far this will go.

This is more fun than prospecting, and I am sure in uncharted waters for me. I am curious to see just what is around the corner. That is, if I survive the war...

Now the rules are, according to the Bible that you are suposto lay a hand or hands on the hurt spot and pray, but I figure God may make an exception for a round the world prayer. If one leg shows up shorter, let me know. I would like to pray and see if a round the world prayer works. This Jesus in action stuff is kinda new to me. For years it was philosophy, now it is physics. The first year I believed God gave a rip about me and decided to return the favor I prayed for a wart on my cousins hand he could not get rid of with compound W or a pocket knife. I put my thumb on it and prayed and when I lifted my thumb the wart was gone. We both about fell over right there. I don't think I ever prayed for a physical healing since then, I guess I was afraid It would not work. I think I blew it... Come to think of it I have, I prayed christian style for a few people with cancer. They died anyway. But this Christian style is different, I commanded by the authority of the name of Jesus, I did not beg God for favors. It is like He wanted me to stand on my own two feet under His authority, not whine for blessings. I am sure I will get flamed by traditional Christians for not having respect. But I do have respect, far more than you can guess. I am jst doing what the Bible said to do, the way it said to do it. It worked that way.

One pointer for any Christian lurker. The interesting key was the teaching by this guy that as Christians we believe that we must have faith and pray in Jesus name. He said that faith was not the key ingrediant to effective prayer. He said take the faith out, it is good, but set it aside and replace it with obediance. If God says Pray, pray. Faith will follow. Trust me, when my back was healed, faith followed. When I saw his backbone raise before my eyes, faith followed. It is a strange faith, it is strong and not something I have to generate on hope. I see, I believe. That kind of faith is unshakeable. God said, lay hands on the sick and heal them. Obey.

Blessings to ya, have a good night, it is 12:20 pm and I gotta crash.

527 posted on 10/09/2002 4:34:28 PM PDT by American in Israel
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