Terror link to Maryland shootings? Experts divided whether killing spree work of al-Qaida

WorldNetDaily.com ^ | Friday, October 4, 2002

[Shooter 2.5]

I would also have the authorities ask the military recruiters if anyone tried to become a military sniper since 9/11.

[Free Trapper]

A new shooting in Virginia just now posted.

Sorry,don't know how to link it.

[xJones]

Travis, I just read your sample chapter and it was certainly gripping. The characters were very real, and unfortunately, the scenerio was not unrealistic for what we've seen of the ATF. When you put it out on Amazon, I assume you'll let us know on FR. Please put me on any ping list you use at that time so I won't miss it. Thanks.

[Fred Mertz]

The new shooting (possibly) thread is Here!

[Shooter 2.5]

Anger has a way of focusing a person. I don't think it takes a high degree of experience or training to gun down unsuspecting civilians.

[wardaddy]

Well done Mr. Helm!!....I applaud your honesty and humility. I'm wrong too.....frequently. I'm probably wrong somewhere on this very thread...lol

[Free Trapper]

Thanks!

[Gritty]

The fact that it started at the police station would make it appear that the perp is challenging the police to find him.

Not necessarily. He may not have been that familiar with the area except for the road patterns and just picked an easy target that met his criterea and with what seemed to be (at the moment) minimum witnesses.

[spunkets]

Here's some numbers...

The sound from the muzzle blast of a 308 comes from the energy of 45 grs of powder released at ~3000ft/sec(the flame). That's an energy release of 1809 ft-lbs. That's a significant cause of recoil also.

A 165 gr(I picked the noisiest bullet in the chart) going between 100 and 200yds looses 320 ft/lbs. That's 32 ft-lbs in 10 ft. 10 ft is good enough to get the crack, the rest is zipping crack(LOL). The energy release from a shot from a five grain load(~1/2 a 45 cal load)is 361 ft-lbs. That's the entire 308 loss for a full 100 yds. That's why, if the bullet passes by at many ft of distance there's a distinct zipping sound to it. I'll guess a 22 has 1 gr of powder, that's 72 ft-lbs of E. So the 308 crack is on the order of a 22 muzzle blast. Sure this is all rough, but it demonstrates why I said they wouldn't jump out of their seats from a 308 going down the road outside. BTW, if your in a target pit the round is close and the pit is going to collect and amplify the crack.

[WRhine]

I would also have the authorities ask the military recruiters if anyone tried to become a military sniper since 9/11.

That's an excellent idea. Could speak to motive.

[WRhine]

BTTT! Looking forward to reading your book Travis.

[twigs]

Pretty good thinking aloud. Actually, excellent! Thanks.

[spunkets]

#409's got some comment on the sound of cruising super sonic bullets.

[Atlas Sneezed]

"Most every State does not allow them (sound supressors) at all unless for military or LEO. I say most states because I am not aware of any state that does allow a civilian to have one in their possesion. Is there a state that allows civilian use?"

You will be surprised to learn that supressors are banned in only 13 states (CA, DE, HI, IL, KS, MA, MI, MN, MO, NJ, NY, RI, VT). In Washington, possession is legal, but use is not. In Iowa, ownership is limited to ones designated as collector's items. In the rest, they are quite legal for peons to own and use.

Source: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt

[twigs]

He may not have been that familiar with the area except for the road patterns and just picked an easy target

That seems to be the concensus. Thanks.

[mississippi red-neck]

What he Florida and the New Jersey decisions means to me is " That the people with the least respect for the written law in this country are liberal Democractic Surpreme Court Justicies ". MRN

[null and void]

Remember the "happy face" killer? You think this guy (or his confederates) will try to cover a crescent-shaped path?

Maybe a crescent and star...

[Fletcher J]

A few humble clarifications for the various firearms discussions on this thread:

A 100 yard shot with a rifle (head shots included) should *not* be a problem for any practiced individual with almost any decent rifle, including AK47 variants. Talk of "advanced marksmenship training" is just silly. Police SWAT snipers do train extensively at that range, but the price for a miss (potentially, a dead innocent person) is much higher than for psycho-boy. In this case, the news reports 5 hits and at least 1 miss through the glass (which, granted, IS harder). But how many other individuals could have been shot at and don't even know it? With almost a 20% miss ratio at an unknown distance, I hardly think that psycho-boy is some kind of shooting phenom.

I promise you that AK47s shoot the 7.62x39 cartridge. This is a metric measurement which indicates that the projectile is 7.62mm in diameter and the shell casing is 39mm long. (7.62 is roughly 30 caliber for us Americans) This round has about the same power as a 30-30 round. Please note that many a deer has been killed at 100+ yard range by typical hunters with 30-30 lever action rifles.

Before the AK47, the Russian military used the 7.62x54R cartridge in the Mosin-Nagant bolt action rifle. The "R" stands for "Rimmed". This round is also used in the Dragunov sniper rifle, which is an accurized, longer barreled AK47 style action. This round is close in size to the American 30-06, or the British .303.

The typical, unmodified AR-15 is much more accurate than the typical unmodified AK47. Design and tolerances give the AR-15 a huge advantage in accuracy. Can someone build an AK to outperform an AR-15? Yes, and an AMC Gremlin could be made to outrun a Mustang GT - at a higher cost than the GT, but that would just be wrong.

That being said, the AK47 is plenty accurate to hit and kill people at the distances that most people tend to shoot at each other. Note: once you've killed someone with a cheap weapon, you can't really have killed them any "better" with an expensive optical-sight, night-vision, sub-MOA high-velocity wunder-rifle. They're just dead.

AK47's are not sloppy on purpose so that "nitwits can use them to blast away indefinately w/o having to maintain them". They are manufactured with loose tolerances so that they will go boom everytime you pull the trigger, whether you are laying in the mud, sand, or what have you. The simple design is reliable and effective. They're also easier and cheaper to make, making them popular with people who need a cheap, reliable weapon with which they can kill things. (or just plink, like me)

Mini-14's are *not* engineered like an AR-15. They're engineered like a smaller version of the military M14, hence the name... Mini-14.

[Boomer_45]

I must say this is the first post I have seen on this topic that states the facts. Mr. Fletcher is correct in his assement of the weapons and the skill required to hit a human size target at 100 yards.

Unless there has been a cartridge case recovered from the scene, I would say there are two pieces of speculation thus far. The first is the exact caliber of the weapon. The AK-74,yes 74 not 47, uses a round very similar to the .223 Remington or 5.55mm NATO (they are the same round). Also there are an abundance of rifles (and T/C handguns) that are chambered for the .223 Remington,it is a popular varmit and deer cartridge. Yes, the AR-15 and variants along with the Mini-14 are also chambered for this round. Secondly, the distance of 100 yards is likely to be speculation. Is there a witness to place the shooter at a specific spot? Not that I have heard (I could have missed it).

Bottom line, nearly any hunter could have made these shots as far as we know. Likewise, nearly any terrorist could have made these shots. They are not superhuman feats marksmanship.

Greg - www.defensivesolutions.com

[infowarrior]

I AM serious, amigo. I'm a Cold War veteran, 14 yrs Army service, first stationed in FRG 5Km from the Warsaw Pact border. I WILL REPEAT, the AK-47 rifle which was standard issue for Warsaw Pact troops at that time(known as the AK-M) was chambered in 7.62x54mm, NOT 7.62x39mm. The 7.62x39mm round was a round designed for civilian, militia, and export use only. It is too anemic for front-line military use, and the Soviet Bloc, when it existed, were not stupid. My facts ARE in order.

FWIW, the current standard Russian service round is the 5.45mm round, used in the Ak-74 (no that's NOT a typo!!)

the infowarrior