Twenty-three year old man shot dead by police in a marijuana raid

Dayton Daily News ^ | 10/01/02 | Cathy Mong

[Mr. Mojo]

whenever I hear ANYTHING in my house, I immediately grab my shotgun. Because if it?s some lunatic busting into my house, I have a way better chance of surviving. Especially if it's a gang of lunatics. Now if it's the police, well, it looks like I die. Not fair man....

If you're going to die, better to take out a few of the pigs before you go. If it happens enough, they might just think twice before busting down people's doors for the crime of possessing a few freakin' plants.

[md2576]

Tired of Texas quote to Havoc "If the majority of Americans wanted to prohibit tobacco sales or usage, should we make cigarettes illegal?"

Havoc would say yes, then he would group those damn maggot cigarette smokers with the bank robbers and murderers.

"What you want to be treated fairly for breaking the law."

I hate to burst your bubble but our constitution grants every person, criminal or not, fair treatment. So YES!

I just saw a guy jaywalking! Lock him up with the other criminal murderers.

Your comparisons of smoking a joint and these terrible, immoral crimes you associate are just ramblings because you have no good reason for disliking pot smokers except that it is illegal and maybe you know a few druggies.

A pot smoker does not a druggie make!

You still haven't responded to about half of the questions I have asked of you. All you do is keep calling pot smokers addicts and criminals just like a murderer. I'm surprised you haven't linked child abuse with pot. You know why you haven't? Because you know Alcohol is one of the leading factors in child abuse and spousal abuse. But you don't respond to those comparisons, only stupid anecdotes about 12 year old presidents and unfair treatment of people who light up A JOINT!

A JOINT! That's ALL it is! It's not crack, it's not coke, it's not even as dangerous as half of legal drugs and medical procedures readily available today!

I would also like to know if you would be so avid against pot smokers had Marijuana never been criminalized.

You obviously feel that way about everything else that's a crime. All I can think about is how many unconstitutional laws have been passed and revoked due to the fact that the majority of the Country got more intelligent. You seem to think everything is fine and every law is right! NO MATTER WHO OR WHAT!

Would you turn your Grandma in if you caught her smoking? You know,criminal responsibility and all?

"The times they are a changin"

I also never said I smoked pot either. You can have your assumptions but we all know what that spells.

[Havoc]

Gee, tired. I don't really care. Why don't you buy a few pounds of dope and teach your kids how to light up early and often. And once you've ruined them, come back and tell us how intelligent your position is. How about I paint you a scenario.

A 16 year old girl hangs out with a group of girls that are rebels - cool. She starts smoking pot but can't afford it; but, if she'll have sex with someone, they'll take care of her habit for her. Wow, neat. Now she's popular and has an expensive habit she doesn't have to pay for. But it's girls (yes plural) she's sleeping with. Doesn't take long to devolve does it - I'll tell you up front that it's a true story.

She rebels against the parents and for several years is a practicing lesbian - till she falls out of favor in the group when she puts on a little too much weight and the
effect of not being hygenic from the practice of smoking every waking moment catches up. So she finds a guy to sleep with in exchange for drugs and runs away at 18 to Florida to be the sleepin for this dreg in exchange for the paid habit. She gets pregnant, and now it's her fault because that wasn't the deal. The guy beats her up and she comes home. Now life is against her and the drugs are all she has other than a baby on the way, no job and no outlook because in the mean time we forgot to throw in that she dropped out of highschool. I think you can guess the rest.
She has three kids today and still hasn't learned a whole lot more than the world hates her.

C'mere - you have a little girl- is she good looking. I got something for her that will make her feel good. Is it personal yet?! It should be. If it isn't, you aren't a human being and I've got no more use for talking to you.
It's the pot that makes the lifestyle, not the cost of it.
Just as the war is what makes sense, not the cost of it.
Or would you rather tell us that Wiping out terrorism should end because it's too expensive. Wake up and smell what you're shoveling. My nose doesn't work and I can smell it!!!

[md2576]

Now you combine smoking pot with homeless pregnant teenage girls that get beat up and are hated by society? You also link the war on POT to the war on terrorism!

You are nothing but a joke! You know how many stories I could write about an alcoholics life? hundreds of 1000's!

You quote one unrealistic story about a girl trading sex for pot and it shows me you have never smoked or seen anyone who has or you would know how ridiculously stupid that story was.

Where's your daughter, because I have a couple of drinks to slip her and she'll never know what happened!

[md2576]

Personal enough for you?!?

Whats's the chances of each story?

If you were to bet your daughter on it I bet you would pick me giving her a joint wouldn't you!

[Havoc]

The majority of your questions are meant to play games in relativism and I've already gone there. I'm not going to sit and continually revisit it. And no I don't dislike druggies because they smoke pot. I dislike druggies because they're a cancer on society that you want to write off as an a-okay assault on the rest of us. And I personally don't care if you smoke or not. You aren't going to sit here and tell me about a perfect world that I know from experience doesn't exist.

You can slap whatever slurs on it you wish but in the end you're a used car salesman telling us a pinto is a mercedes.
I'm not going to let you get by with it. And I don't much care about your opinion to that end. Instead of batting away the so called ramblings, why don't you deal with the real life situations. You can't, because that would require having a heart, giving a hoot about something or someone other than a dube and admitting to the utter vacancy of your bs. Tell us another one.

[Havoc]

You are clueless or you think the world is. Go back to the pot boards.

[md2576]

"Instead of batting away the so called ramblings, why don't you deal with the real life situations."

Oh yeah! Your one to talk about real life situations. In my life a person smokes a joint and sits on the couch, in yours they smoke a joint, become murders, robbers, terrorists,and every other atrocity you can possibly try to link to pot.

You are the one living in fantasy land! Tell ME another one!

[md2576]

"You are clueless or you think the world is. Go back to the pot boards."

Funny, I noticed this whole thread is about pot. You know, the thread your posting to now. Who's clueless?

Go back to 1940!

[Havoc]

First of all, we aren't talking chances. We're talking real human beings - something you seem to have little care for. This isn't a probability game. This is the facts of life. REALITY - ever heard of it? I haven't seen you do anything with the reality and presumeably because your selfcentered little pea brain can't get around it. Tough thinking of others isn't it. But these bits of reality are precisely what you'd be against on Capitol Hill in far more numerous scenarios than what I've presented just from My own life experience. Run away little dreamer scuttle off under the cabinets - the lights are on.

And I don't have any kids. Nor would I be moronic enough to either expose them to drugs, condone it, or let them come within 1 light year of a moron with your beliefs if I had any say in the matter.

[Havoc]

Right the rosey world of neverland again where drugs are harmless and people are little angels. Congratulations. You're a minority even within a minority.

[Tired of Taxes]

I have absolutely no idea what your story has to do with the issue. Rather, it was just an emotional tirade. I told you that I don't take drugs - not even aspirin. And, btw, I wouldn't advocate selling drugs to minors. But, what does that have to do with adults making the decision to smoke dope? If you think they shouldn't, fine. But, hey, I have opinions of my own, too - should we make them law? I don't think people should smoke cigarettes. Should we ban them? I don't think people should drink alcohol. Should we return to prohibition? You know, coffee and fatty burgers are bad for you, too. What substance should we add to the list of illegals next?

[FormerLurker]

A 16 year old girl hangs out with a group of girls that are rebels - cool. She starts smoking pot but can't afford it; but, if she'll have sex with someone, they'll take care of her habit for her. Wow, neat. Now she's popular and has an expensive habit she doesn't have to pay for. But it's girls (yes plural) she's sleeping with. Doesn't take long to devolve does it - I'll tell you up front that it's a true story.

You are about as informed as the Reefer Madness crowd back in the 30's. I could post some cute little images of some of the hilarious posters they had from back then, such as the Reefer Girl series. I'll refrain from doing that, as you apparently would take them seriously.

I've NEVER EVER known ANYONE who traded POT for sex. If you think smoking pot is an "expensive" habit that requires people to trade their bodies for a "pot fix", you are living in a fantasy world. Weed is fairly cheap, and if someone really wants to smoke it, they can buy it rather inexpensively.

The sort of drug that leads a person to trade their body for it is cocaine, crack, and heroin. So-called "party" drugs such as Ecstasy, "Sextasy" (Esctasy+Viagra), and various others are easily accessible to teens and aren't that expensive. They DO have sex when they do THOSE drugs however, although it is more on a consensual basis (except for those who have been tricked into taking them unknowlingly).

[Havoc]

Glad to see you so readily avoid tough issues too. But you are good at sticking to the talking points. Talk to me when you can deal with reality. I'm off to speak with people who are human.

[Havoc]

You're living in a dream world. I know what it costs because I know and have known users. I choose not to associate with them; but I know them. And the cost of pot goes through the roof when the cops are doing their job.
Guess it really must have put a damper on things when they busted the guy across town that was having it smuggled into the county by the bail. Still have the paper with him on the front page. And to think, I sat across the table from him at breakfast 8 years ago. From what I understand he had enough hardware in his home to fight a good little battle. They always catch 'em when they're away from the big strongholds and armies built to protect their "stuff".
He had enough weapons on his farm to take on the national gaurd and win. Glad he's in jail. But boy did the prices of Kentucky Red go through the roof when he went away. Not to mention everything else. Then the guys with the acid lab got busted and that went way up too. Gee, guess some of us are totally clueless about what goes on in the world around us. Actually some of us pay attention. And those of us that do don't let those like you sell the clueless a pack of lies.

That's what it's all about. Doesn't matter whether it's some kooky group selling the next Jonestown koolaid mix or
selling watered down burbon as a cleaner, tonic and wart remover. There's always going to be someone with real life experience peeing on your parade. Lord if you could only shut up those troublesome menaces that bother your agendas with facts and truth. Sucks doesn't it. And btw, 50 a dime is expensive when you're a teenager with no diploma that neither has a job nor can get one. Economics 101, goes along with Reading 101 and Thinking 001. Perhaps you should invest some more time in all three before jumping in with both feet.

[Tired of Taxes]

Listen, Havoc, not so long ago, I thought the pro-legalization crowd was crazy, too. I argued with them incessantly, and I brought up the same scenarios, many of which I witnessed just outside my front door. I would've been arguing on your side, back then.

But, I don't think anyone here would advocate legal prostitution of minors or the sale of drugs to minors. So, your story is not a good illustration of your point. And, anyway, those situations occur even though those drugs are ILLEGAL.

You either support the principles of freedom and personal accountability, or you don't. I'll bet you wouldn't hesitate to defend gun rights, eh? Or, how about the right of parents to homeschool their children? Well, the anti-WOD position follows along the same lines - personal accountability and freedom.

But, if you want your hardearned tax dollars paying for a war to save people from themselves, then maybe you should donate your income, but let the rest of us keep ours.

[md2576]

"I haven't seen you do anything with the reality and presumably because your self-centered little pea brain can't get around it."

Actually, this should be my post to you! I have talked about the reality of the dangers involved in alcohol and hard drugs.

Not once have you given a reality based answer on why marijuana should be illegal. That's all I want. Some facts to back up such hypocritical statements about Crime and pot but not once have you been able to give any reality. I would post some reality about some of the things that you do in your life that could, in some way or manner, be linked to murders and rapists (how about sweat shops).

But still we come to you telling me I don't know reality when I say that smoking pot is not as bad as drinking and should certainly not be illegal. I know many business owners and members of the community that smoke pot every once in a great while. I don't think that a father, family man and an upstanding citizen should be arrested and have their lives thrown in turmoil (not to mention hefty fines) for smoking a j on Saturday night .WHO DOES THIS HURT?

ALL OF US NOW because we pay for this pot war

That IS reality. Don't try to bulk me with group of hippies while you think everyone else has your beliefs, and if they don't, then it must be fantasy to you.

[gdc61]

denial?try fact, fool. i "personally" smoked pot for almost 30 years and never heard of and challenge you to prove your pipe dream that pot causes dehydration.!! hahahaha another good solid belly laugh on your account. anyway back to my rant...hows that for refinment, madame.and i have seen wid me very own eyes average joes beat their wives due to no money for beer. dry green ? must be a new phrase never heard that one.you probably made that up too. and now without further ado the same old question.... when you lump pot in with meth and coke and horse you must include alcohal and nicotine...and again which one of the above does NOT produce a lethal dose. you guessed it !!!! pot!!!! you can die from all your favorite illegal AND legal substances except pot ...imagine....no such thing as smoke till you croak........ unless its cigarettes while your wearing a nicotine patch the doctor prescribed to you!!!! isn't it amazing that an old pothead like me can match wits with a intelligent young person such as yourself .....makes you wonder about your beliefs doesn't it? ...i didn't think so

[gdc61]

by the way i must of had a stoned flashback when i called you intelligent. i am starting to think , after going back over all your posts that you are actually pulling this stuff out of your .....book you got at the local WOD store . it sounds like stuff they put in pamphlets and hand outs at an anti-drug rally sponsered by a bunch of hollywood whiners

[gdc61]

whow !you missed it again . nicotine is lethal , fact. alcohal is lethal, fact. marijuana is not lethal , fact geeze wheeze bozo... FOOD debilitates if you eat too much! exercize debilitates if you go too long and hard . you must be awfully sheltered if you think alcohal is not addictive its the largest contributer to domestic violence both spouse and children as well as automobile accidents check your fact sheet bucko somebody musta switched pages on you