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JANET DALEY: Moral case against war is at best naive, at worst idiotic
The Daily Telegraph ^ | September 25, 2002 | Janet Daley

Posted on 09/25/2002 1:21:32 AM PDT by MadIvan

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To: MadIvan
At the risk of causing your head to swell (yes, I saw the Happygal interchanges), most excellent rebuttals of the peace-niks on the thread. :-)
41 posted on 09/25/2002 11:05:06 PM PDT by justshe
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To: #3Fan; A CA Guy; Amelia; anniegetyourgun; AppyPappy; ArneFufkin; Arthur McGowan; backhoe; ...
PING for a GREAT read.

Excerpt: "Let's leave the military aspects to one side for the moment - the tactical questions of Iraqi weapons and their possible uses are a matter for the defence experts. Let me deal here just with the moral arguments, which have filled columns of newspaper print and hours of broadcast airtime.

I have spent a good portion of the past 48 hours locked in televised confrontations with critics of the United States. The shrillness of their accusations seems to rise in direct proportion to their incoherence. Even by the usual standards of political doublethink, there is something very desperate and unscrupulous about this case which so ostentatiously claims the moral high ground. It is as if the anti-American reflex came first and the need to substantiate it followed as an afterthought."

42 posted on 09/25/2002 11:12:56 PM PDT by justshe
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To: MadIvan
Because "then" was a mistake. The United States made a serious blunder at the time - due largely to its reluctance to appear "imperialistic"

Yup!

43 posted on 09/25/2002 11:17:22 PM PDT by Cold Heat
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To: justshe
Thanks for the ping! Madivan has found another good one!
44 posted on 09/25/2002 11:23:01 PM PDT by Cold Heat
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To: Texasforever
I find it amazing how quickly you went from being a advocate for reasonable debate to one of personal invective.

Oh, get over yourself. Your friend Ivan is the one who decided to disregard points that I made about Pakistan. And how that's not a niggling threat, either. And how it's reasonable to conclude, without being a "coward," that this is a greater danger than the penned-in Iraq regime. And who took my contention of not being a pacifist and deciding that, yes, he's read my mind, and he's determined that I am a pacifist after all. I don't take kindly to being accused, implicitly, of being a liar.

Those who pose the notion that someone is a "coward" or a "traitor" are given a pass around here from supplying well-supported or courteous dialogue. This is nothing new.

I maintained, somewhat more pungently, that someone who only offers assertions and insults is being rhetorically empty. I didn't say that someone who was (British, pro-Bush, fill in the blank) was thereby incorrect. Only the latter case is one of ad hominem.

Insisting on reasonable dialogue doesn't mean that one suffers fools until the end of time. When you slam your buddy Ivan about abandoning substance ("Thank you, Tariq Aziz" qualifies, methinks), I might acknowledge that you're being even-handed. Not until then.

45 posted on 09/25/2002 11:47:44 PM PDT by Greybird
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To: MadIvan
Lost in all the debates and rhetoric is the simple fact that probably 99% of America is in favor of the U.S. crushing Iraq militarily.

The only real difference lies in those that want to attack Iraq before America is devastated by his weapons of mass destruction versus those that those that want to attack Iraq after America is devastated by his weapons of mass destruction.

Take your pick...

--Boot Hill

46 posted on 09/25/2002 11:56:32 PM PDT by Boot Hill
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To: Boot Hill
The only real difference lies in those that want to attack Iraq before America is devastated by his weapons of mass destruction versus those that those that want to attack Iraq after America is devastated by his weapons of mass destruction.

In a nutshell.

47 posted on 09/26/2002 12:51:53 AM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Greybird
Oh, get over yourself. Your friend Ivan is the one who decided to disregard points that I made about Pakistan. And how that's not a niggling threat, either. And how it's reasonable to conclude, without being a "coward," that this is a greater danger than the penned-in Iraq regime. And who took my contention of not being a pacifist and deciding that, yes, he's read my mind, and he's determined that I am a pacifist after all. I don't take kindly to being accused, implicitly, of being a liar.

As you Americans say, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

And you have no evidence that Pakistan is a greater threat apart from you saying, "I think Pakistan is a greater threat". I pointed out Musharaff has been helpful during the War on Terror. He has nukes for a different purpose than Saddam Hussein. Nothing you've said has refuted this. It's amazing that you actually think you've refuted it just because you're so certain in your pacifism.

Those who pose the notion that someone is a "coward" or a "traitor" are given a pass around here from supplying well-supported or courteous dialogue. This is nothing new.

If the shoe fits, have the courtesy to wear it. You come on here, make statements without any evidence or logic to back it up and are surprised that you get your head pounded in.

I maintained, somewhat more pungently, that someone who only offers assertions and insults is being rhetorically empty. I didn't say that someone who was (British, pro-Bush, fill in the blank) was thereby incorrect. Only the latter case is one of ad hominem.

Oh dear God, here we go again with the same old pacifist whinge. You offered only assertions. I have challenged you, repeatedly, to provide evidence that Musharaff is a greater threat than Hussein. You have not done so. I have put forward facts - that Iraq has chemical and biological weapons, Iraq has invaded its neighbours and so on. These are facts. You counter by saying my facts are assertions and your assertions are facts. And you wonder why you are regarded with thinly veiled contempt?

Insisting on reasonable dialogue doesn't mean that one suffers fools until the end of time. When you slam your buddy Ivan about abandoning substance ("Thank you, Tariq Aziz" qualifies, methinks), I might acknowledge that you're being even-handed. Not until then.

Awww, did I hurt your little feelings? Wait until hell freezes over for an apology.

Ivan

48 posted on 09/26/2002 1:26:04 AM PDT by MadIvan
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To: The Duke
Do you think that 9/11 was an "attack on freedom"? "

Precisely and admittedly by those who did it. They wish to eliminate us because we are free; they wish the world to be ruled by Islam and by Shaia. It is exactly an attack on freedom. Have you not read their own words and stated purposes?

You think they attacked us because of oil? How silly.

49 posted on 09/26/2002 3:06:20 AM PDT by D-fendr
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To: Texasforever
Halliburton is not an oil company.

Those pesky details!

50 posted on 09/26/2002 7:17:08 AM PDT by Steve0113
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To: D-fendr
They wish to eliminate us because we are free; they wish the world to be ruled by Islam and by Shaia.

More precisely, they wish to conquer and subjugate us, and then impose Islamic law on us. They violently disagree with the notion of separating church and state, and despise us for having a secular government.

51 posted on 09/26/2002 7:21:47 AM PDT by Steve0113
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To: D-fendr
They also don't believe in "government by the consent of the governed".
52 posted on 09/26/2002 8:01:31 AM PDT by Steve0113
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To: justshe
Bump
53 posted on 09/26/2002 9:02:36 AM PDT by wardaddy
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To: D-fendr
You think they attacked us because of oil? How silly.

Strange, I don't recall Iraq ever attacking us. All I recall is us attacking them. Tell me where they attacked, Oregon?....Maine?....Florida?

54 posted on 09/26/2002 9:19:15 AM PDT by The Duke
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To: Texasforever
You show your lack of credibility or you abundance of ignorance with that statement alone. Halliburton is not an oil company. So your own lack of knowledge damns your entire argument.

It's called a "metaphor"...you should try it some time!

55 posted on 09/26/2002 9:20:20 AM PDT by The Duke
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To: The Duke
Saddam's one tenth the threat of Fidel Castro

How in the world do you figure this? It's 2002, not 1962.

56 posted on 09/26/2002 9:28:08 AM PDT by jpl
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To: The Duke
"They" of course referred to the same "they" you referred too.

But you knew that.

If, however, you are unaware of Iraq's threat to US, then you haven't been paying much attention, and there's not much I can do about that - except say: "Pay more attention."

Thanks for your reply…
57 posted on 09/26/2002 11:00:43 AM PDT by D-fendr
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To: Steve0113
Good points you made. Yes, freedom, democracy, secular government, consent of the governed… these are the "problems" of western civilization in the islamicist's eyes.

And this is the reason they are "on a mission from God" to defeat and subjugate us. The idea that they would abandon this mission if we do something, other than become a Islamic theocracy, is ludicrous.

As one put it: We don't want you to give us anything. We want to eliminate you.

thanks for your reply
58 posted on 09/26/2002 11:08:02 AM PDT by D-fendr
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To: jpl
How in the world do you figure this? It's 2002, not 1962.

The question is, of course, how can we justify a "regime change" for Iraq in 2002 and not have justified a change for Cuba in 1962 (or today, for that matter - surely you don't think that Castro has not accumulated nasty weapons specifically for use against the US??).

The answer is that we've become a different people - and a morally inferior people.

59 posted on 09/26/2002 12:32:51 PM PDT by The Duke
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To: justshe
Thanks for the ping justshe!

Nice article.
60 posted on 09/26/2002 5:51:52 PM PDT by terilyn
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