Job market collapse has people packing

San Francisco Chronicle ^

[Red Jones]

i did not post that to you, but I don't apologize for it. I was also simply raised among a group of people who were willing to make great sacrifices for one another and were very loyal to their fellow americans. duty, honor, country is a code I remember.

You asked 'how do we compete?'. Well, look friend we've been the top dogs in engineering, in innovation, in inventions, in nobel prizes for as long as we've been doing it. Of all the patents and inventions that are worthwhile to people since 1800 it is not just 50%, it is a much higher percentage than that that were made by americans, it is really in the vicinity of 80%. You look at the nobel prizes given out for science in the last several decades and it is a list of americans with a few foreigners interspersed. The non-american born americans on the list emmigrated to the US freely without being indentured servants. We've always had programs encouraging the top people to do that, that's why our grad schools have so many foreigners in them. Nobody is against that.

We americans have this awesome history of technical innovation and achievement for several reasons. One reason is that our people historically have had a lot of character and heart. Another reason is that we've systematically made education available to everyone, even to common people. Another reason is that we've had a legal system and a cultural environment even that encouraged the actual achievers to be actually rewarded financially for their achievements.

Other nations have failed in comparison to us because they did not do these things. They were more like what we're moving to now, where the manipulators of laws and those in power take the lion's share from the actual producers.

It is stupid to believe that we can't make a lot of other changes besides h1b in order to compete. The business class is dominated by selfish cowards. They should rally the american people to pressure government to cut its spending, to cut its taxation and to cut bad regulations which have destroyed whole industries.

So be happy, the disrespect I have for the corporate and political elite who are so weak and who have given us this h1b is far far greater than anything I might have for you.

[ComputationalComplexity]

That was what I was saying all along, improve education and efficiency, and gradually phase out the H1Bs and replace them with our own elite engineers, its the best solution I could think of. Both you and bluedriver were thinking in terms of tariffs, government intervention, that would employ the surplus of laid off engineers we have right now. I'm saying that its not a good plan, a short term fix, that is all.

[FormerLurker]

Flame away if you want, but that doesn't help anyone's situation. And noone as of yet has given me a sustainable solution to this problem.

I have a simple solution. Cancel all H1B visas except for those that are truly recognized experts in their field, a requirement that used to be in effect. Next, go back to the prior policy of only allowing those into the country that ARE recognized experts. That should bring the allowable quota down to several hundred per year.

That IS the way it HAD been, and all was well. There never was a shortage of qualified engineers to begin with. It was simply another false claim by those whose greed exceeds their intelligence.

[Destructor]

"For Clouse, leaving is an act of desperation. To help finance his move, he is selling off his one treasure -- a library of thousands of science fiction and fantasy books. For a collection that took years to accumulate and cost him thousands of dollars, he expects to clear a few hundred bucks."

Too bad he didn't save that money that he blew on those books! Maybe then he could have stayed in granola land. I just hope he doesn't move to Texas.

[luckystarmom]

Well, my old co-workers didn't quit, one of them being my husband.

They have degrees in electrical engineering and computer science degrees.

You don't need to take refresher courses, but you do need to stay up on technology.

Most good engineers can read a book and learn. The design methodologies don't change, and that's what makes a good engineer.

The engineers I worked with stayed up with technology. We all use to work for a defense company, and many of the hardware engineers went to wireless companies. The software engineers went to commercial software companies.

It's a very scary time in Silicon Valley.

[FormerLurker]

Cancel all H1B visas except for those that are truly recognized experts in their field, a requirement that used to be in effect.

That action alone would put roughly 1 million US engineers back to work. With that many people going back to work and spending their money again, a healthy dose of cash would be infused back into the economy. As such, orders would pick up, other people would go back to work, and the economic crisis would evaporate...

[blueriver]

And for anyone out there to say that there isn't enough qualified engineers to fill positions, well, they have an agenda that has nothing to do with helping America.

Yes, most have an agenda that is completely anti American, others are just plain ignorant.

[blueriver]

But instead of ranting, how about giving me a sustainable long term solution to this problem, and you know blocking the H1Bs is just a short term fix.

I know I gave you a solution many many posts ago. Maybe you forgot. In case you did not read the post I will repeat it.

Abolish the current immigration "Free For All" policy. Do the same thing that China does. If a corporation wants to sell their products in AMERICA they will have to MANUFACTURE and DEVELOP their products in AMERICA. All companies would be on a level playing field. Americans are still the worlds biggest consumers, any company that does not want to sell their products in America can go to China or India and forfeit the American consumer. It would be their FREE choice to do so, however I think they would not.

[speekinout]

The design methodologies don't change, and that's what makes a good engineer.

Actually, they do. The engineers who simply repeat methodologies that have been used for years are the ones who can be replaced by H1B workers. That's a rote task - sure, it's a skilled one, but repetition gets the "bugs" out of any task.
The people who do the best are the ones who make changes to existing methodologies - to make products cheaper, safer, more secure, whatever. That is where Americans have usually done well.

Faithful repetition of existing methodology can be bought cheap. Innovation cannot. And most real innovation is of American origin.

[ComputationalComplexity]

That is not a sustainable solution. China can do it, because they have a billion people working at slave wages, we can't afford have all the industries here and pay good wages, the cost of living for Americans are to high to maintain an industrial society. Now if you're going to force all companies to develop and manufacture their stuff in the U.S you might as well plunge the planet back into the dark ages, no other country would be willing to let all their companies be located in another country. Even the U.S doesn't allow its critical technologies and manufacturing techniques go overseas. If your solution is implemented, global trade will be reduced to almost nil, the price for just about everything would increase, and off course other countries will implement similar measure, and U.S companies will be equally restricted that means a shrinking GDP. Think before you post man.

[ComputationalComplexity]

"All companies would be on a level playing field"

No they won't, for companies that are located in other countries to compete they would've to rebuild their entire infrastructure in the U.S which would potentially bankrupt them. Sure the U.S has the largest economy in the world, but the rest of the world put together is still larger. If you force them like this, they may just do the same thing to American, and then we're all screwed.

[FormerLurker]

China can do it, because they have a billion people working at slave wages, we can't afford have all the industries here and pay good wages, the cost of living for Americans are to high to maintain an industrial society. Now if you're going to force all companies to develop and manufacture their stuff in the U.S you might as well plunge the planet back into the dark ages, no other country would be willing to let all their companies be located in another country.

You're a really funny guy there Mr. Compute. You apparently went to a public school where they must not have taught any modern history. I say that because you neglect to take into consideration that prior to the 1970's, virtually ALL of our goods were manufactured here in the United States. And prior to the 1970's, the economy was so rock solid that ANYONE who wanted to work could work, support a family with the mother staying at home, buy a house, and go on family vacations. That simply isn't possible anymore due to the lack of job stability (if one can find a job that is), taxes that are MUCH higher in proportion to income, the obscene cost of real estate, and the high cost of living all around. Most families (if still intact) require BOTH parents to work out of necessity. Even then, one's future can evaporate rather quickly due to the influx of foreign slave labor and the export of most of our manufacturing facilities.

We will soon be a nation of supermarket clerks, car salesmen, lawyers, doctors, and government officials. And of course there will be the rich glutons who decide the fate of scores of workers by replacing those workers with identured servants from overseas, and exporting all of our remaining manufacturing capabilities to China.

[FormerLurker]

If you force them like this, they may just do the same thing to American, and then we're all screwed.

Your scare tactics only work against the ignorant. Those who can think back a few years can instantly see past your smoke and mirrors. Incidently, are you a corporate official, or are you a lobbyist for a foreign nation?

[ComputerScientistTurnedLawyer]

I would not be so quick to assume that math and science are more important than liberal arts. I hold a BSCS, magna cum laude, from the University of Maryland (ranked 12th in the nation). I was also the product architect and principal engineer for several very successful commercial products. You know what? I am currently enrolled in a legal program.

Many of the attorneys that teach at my school also actively practice law. They say that techies are easy prey because they lack the well-rounded education that most professional types possess; namely, the ability to effectively convey one’s ideas in written/verbal form as well the ability to negotiate and organize.

Additionally, techies are the only so called professionals that are not represented by a union. Lawyers have the American Bar Association (ABA) that actively lobbies congress on their behalf. One lawyer said that a bill to import guest worker lawyers would last about twenty-four hours before the ABA had it killed.

If one examines the text for the “American Competitiveness and Workforce Investment Act” (ACWIA—a.k.a the H-1B statute), ones sees provisions for special interests included everywhere in the language. Heck, even the worker protections written in the bill are hollow at best. This language was manipulated; so, that Indian-owned (i.e., foreign controlled companies) body shops, like Tata and Satyam, that were some of the largest users of H-1B visas, could basically game the law.

The ACWIA statute reads like Swiss cheese, and should have been called the “Indian Competitiveness and Workforce Investment Act” because that is exactly the effect it had on the economy. It basically allowed foreign-owned companies to establish a beachhead on are shores, and train their workforce on our dime.

In closing, please remember that many H-1Bs are brokered through multi-party arrangements. An Indian-owned, foreign company, with a U.S. presence, will often subcontract to another Indian-owned foreign company without a U.S. presence. The effect is that the payment is made corp-to-corp. The company in India deposits the H-1B’s check in an Indian bank and gives the Indian here a tax-free living allowance; thus, the Indian living and working here pays no U.S. income or social security tax. When these foreign nationals bring over their families, we pick up the freight for educating their children. We could all work for at least forty-percent less if we did not have to pay income or payroll taxes.

[blueriver]

the cost of living for Americans are to high to maintain an industrial society.

Are you saying we are doomed?

[ComputationalComplexity]

No, not at all. What I'm saying is that our economy is changing into the information age, and we have to change with it. We simply can't compete with China in terms of pumping out endless numbers of cheap sneakers.

[blueriver]

we can't afford have all the industries here and pay good wages, the cost of living for Americans are to high to maintain an industrial society.

Throughout this post you have been saying the problem is that we are not educated and smart enough to compete with Asia, your original solution was to fix the education problem. Now you are saying that all that does not matter because we can't compete on a wage basis. So what would be the point of an American spending 4 years getting an Engineering degree if he/she could not compete with an Asian on a wage basis.

By the way what exactly is an information age? What kind of jobs would be available for Americans?