Job market collapse has people packing

San Francisco Chronicle ^

[RCW2001]

Jobless and broke, Bryan Clouse sits among the dwindling possessions in his studio in San Francisco's Fillmore District getting ready to leave what he once thought was a computer nerd's promised land.

In a week, the 35-year-old programmer will load up a rented SUV and say goodbye to the city that has been his home for the past nine years. He will go to live with his grandparents in Brooklyn, Mich., a tiny town of brick storefronts and clapboard houses a few hours west of Detroit. There, with no rent to worry about, he will look for work.

[blueriver]

the problem is math and science, docters and lawyers simply do not have a strong mathematics and physics background. For doctors biology is important but chemistry much less so. The American educational system is lacking in the hard sciences, that is the problem.

I give up. You are just hell bent on coming up with excuses to continue a program that will inevitably destroy the engineering profession in this country. Blaming our schools, the quality of American brains, ect. is all just a bunch of bull. The fact is that there is no SHORTAGE of qualified American engineers in this country. There is only a SHORTAGE of JOBS. Thousand of highly skilled engineers are sitting home applying for jobs that don't exist. Claiming that schools are the problem is so out of touch with reality that it is not even funny.

[blueriver]

As for lawyers - when foreign lawyers begin coming over here and undercutting the American lawyers, something might get done. At least, you will hear some complaints.

Immigration attorneys have a very big stake in this game. They are making a bundle of money via the H-1B visa program. They will fight very hard to keep it and you will never EVER see the day when they will import foreign lawyers.

The number of doctors in this country are controlled by the AMA. You will never EVER see Doctors unemployed in this country. Every other profession could end up just like the engineering profession.

[ComputationalComplexity]

Come on, we all know that there are many good American Engineers, all I'm saying is that in the Computer Science field at least 2 out of every 5 American trained programmers are not that great.

[Red Jones]

what you said is exactly right in 240. Professor Matloff has verified that in his research. Despite the large decline in the quality of our grades 1-12 in the last 50 years we still are producing an awful lot of people to do this work relative to other nations. That's what the objective facts show.

Link below is to Matloff's research.

http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html

Buddhaboy read matloff's research and it opened his eyes. That happens to everyone who reads his research. We've been propagandized on this issue. It is an evil spell over our nation quite frankly. It is doing enormous damage.

[Red Jones]

blueriver, you're a good guy. I read the bible to cope sometimes.

That computationalcomplexity fellow has adopted the types of attitudes that management wants him to have. I forget what psychologists call that. It's like when a slave pretends slavery is good to please his master, yassir boss, etc. He implied that people who complain about h1b are seeking government involvement in the marketplace. But h1b is the government interference into marketplace. He is also young. He hasn't seen how the managerial class can treat technical achievers so dishonestly. A generation or two ago we had a much better class of business leader, the low integrity level among the business managers is a large part of the problem as well as h1b. The ideologies taught to managers in business colleges are a big part of the problem also.

That fellow here on FR named Carry_Okie really told an interesting horror story about how he used to be an engineer type. He was a big achiever, they shafted him. He got out of engineering. He's an author of a book about a completely different subject now. There are so many individual stories like that. I was a big achiever and I have a couple of horror stories to tell about how the managers are just plain bent on cheating you, even after you hand them your labor that makes them rich. Lots of people here on FR have such stories. There are books out about venture capitalists systematically fleecing engineers who have developed what it takes to get a real business going.

You're a good guy Blueriver. I don't know whether I'll succeed. But it is my highest ambition to get together resources and strength in the marketplace to create a business where american engineers are front and center in that organization. I don't believe we can't beat the rest of the world. I don't know what the result will be, but I will stay true to this cause.

Small men like computationalcomplexity will accomplish nothing. Keep your integrity level strong. Have faith. Learn something and point yourself in a direction that may be valuable. Aim for a home run, even if it doesn't pay. I have more confidence in you than in computationalcomplexity.

[Red Jones]

my two brothers are doctors. One thing I learned from them is that once accepted to medical school they have a 99% chance of successfully becoming doctors and raking in very good salaries. You're right. Their careers don't die unless they self-destruct which is rare. The supply of doctors is kept low to keep their compensations high.

Of course the character of engineering is entirely different. Many engineering fields require talent, not just brains.

[Mark Turbo]

That computationalcomplexity fellow has adopted the types of attitudes that management wants him to have. I forget what psychologists call that. It's like when a slave pretends slavery is good to please his master, yassir boss, etc.

Stockholm Syndrome

[gcraig]

Java will be seriously challenged by .NET.

When .NET offers a legacy transaction system connector framework... When .NET compiles and runs on the mainframe... When .NET offers services that participate in a transaction across distributed and legacy systems... When .NET can handle transactions that move the equivalent of $40billion in one weekend, then I'll look at deploying it into our production environments.

C# is cool for prototypes and functional departmental apps. I can't imagine replacing MQSeries and Java for MoveMoney. I appreciate the enhancements that MS provides in C#, it is way cool with respect to events, properties, etc. VS.NET rocks. But, we live in reality.

[blueriver]

Thanks for the words of wisdom. I have enjoyed reading every one of your posts on this subject.

[SwordofTruth]

Compare that to the average one bedroom apartment of cost $1300/month. -And that is with a 45 minute commute!

Why torture yourself with the too high rent, long commute, cold winters and smelly liberals, leave while you still can.

How many more terrorist activities originating in Boston do you need to see before you leave the witch land behind.

BTW, I'm just kidding, kinda.

[Snerfling]

I decided to come to L.A., sight unseen, rather than go to the Bay Area. Maybe it's that, to me, SF is a smaller, more claustrophobic version of New York. I don't quite know. But I've never regretted my decision to settle in the L.A. area.

I grew up in San Jose and moved to LA in 1979 to attend college. Upon graduation, I was recruited by downtown CPA firms and ended up getting a job and staying. My family still lives in the Bay Area and I visit at least a couple of times each year.

In fact, my brother was just down here visiting over the weekend - he's seriously considering moving down. We were talking about the basic differences between the two areas, and I provided him with my favorite pet theory:

As people are making their way out to the coast, they have an option somewhere around St. Louis whether to take the I-80 into the Bay Area or I-15/40 (the old Route 66) into LA.

IMHO, the choice usually hinges on whether one has a positive or negative outlook. The happy people move to SoCal; the bummed out negative people move to SF. As way of example, my brother was amazed at how everyone seemed so happy and relaxed i.e. 'laid back'.

I explained to him that everyone works pretty hard, but they're also very conscious that they live in a fanastic area. Most people equate going to the beach with a holiday, but for SoCal residents, it's like going to the grocery store. It's just right there and easy to get to, so it's no big deal.

BTW, I weathered the aerospace downturn here during the 90s when NO ONE ever thought the region was coming back. The stories like the one in the Chronicle could have been lifted from the LA Times from 1993.

The Silicon Valley is totally screwed for at least another 5 years, which makes the fact that the SoCal economy is humming even more ironic.

Last night, I was talking to my Dad about why the economy is so strong down here - he was asking what was the primary driver; he thought it might be the entertainment industry.

I told him LA has returned to original roots: it's real estate development. People throughout the country are moving here to get a little piece of the action they see projected around the world. The whole place has gone crazy from a building perspective. While prices are getting higher, it's the NEW building activity, not speculation, that's keeping all the trades folk busy and employed.

[speekinout]

Well, those of us with real engineering degrees are losing our jobs. I'm lucky. I've been out of the workforce for 7 years

What kind of engineering do you mean? And no matter what kind you do mean, 7 years is a very long time ago.
Someone who was trained 20 years ago would have to have taken refresher courses many times over the years. Unfortunately, many do not.

[speekinout]

The parents of the 50's and 60's were people who grew up in the 30's, when life could get really ugly if you didn't have the skills to compete. If we had a situation where failure to get your kids educated enough to compete meant that the kids would live in Third-World-style poverty, and the parents would starve to death in old age, you would see a lot more achievement.

Man, that's worth repeating often! I grew up poor. The message that was drummed into us kids was that we were poor because Dad didn't have an education.
Of course, all of us are educated and far from poor.

And, BTW, we all got educated in fields that had good possibilities for employment. We didn't take majors in Women's studies, diversity programs, or social studies.

[ComputationalComplexity]

Thanks alot for the personal attack! But instead of ranting, how about giving me a sustainable long term solution to this problem, and you know blocking the H1Bs is just a short term fix. How do our companies compete when the engineers are more expensive and not as well trained as the competition?

[ComputationalComplexity]

"You are just hell bent on coming up with excuses to continue a program that will inevitably destroy the engineering profession in this country. "

Great get rid of H1B visas if you want. The companies will follow the cheaper talent and the American Engeering sector will die all the sooner. Do you think I like what is happening? NO, I want higher pay for less work, just as anyone else, but it is not possible under the conditions of a global economy. Look at the EU or Japan, these two entities are stagnant because of their government subsidies to protect jobs. Can we as a nation survive like a 10%-15% unemployment rate for the long term. That is the consequence of the action your espousing. All I'm saying is that making ourselves better will help us out in the long run. Because you know that indian software engineers will always be cheaper, at least we should try to be better! That is all I'm saying, if I'm a "small man" or a "complacent slave" for saying such things, then surely you must be smoking something.

[UnBlinkingEye]

Great get rid of H1B visas

Finally from the swamp of complexity comes a valid thought.

[FormerLurker]

Always kinda of found it humorous that computer geeks thought (or think) that they are better than a brick layer, plumber, or mechanic.

No matter what I've done, I've never thought those who did those jobs were somehow lesser that I. If anything, I thought the wholesale exodus of work going to China, Taiwan, Mexico, Indonesia, and other such rat holes was the beginning of the end. I may have been right all along....

[FormerLurker]

The fact is that there is no SHORTAGE of qualified American engineers in this country. There is only a SHORTAGE of JOBS.

If only posting on FR would pay. Now THAT wouldn't be so bad....

Unfortunetely it doesn't. And for anyone out there to say that there isn't enough qualified engineers to fill positions, well, they have an agenda that has nothing to do with helping America.

[FormerLurker]

Come on, we all know that there are many good American Engineers, all I'm saying is that in the Computer Science field at least 2 out of every 5 American trained programmers are not that great.

If that is true, I can bet that you fall into that 2 out of five. Hoping to compete against those who can't speak English so that you'll have some type of edge?

[ComputationalComplexity]

Flame away if you want, but that doesn't help anyone's situation. And noone as of yet has given me a sustainable solution to this problem.