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1 posted on 09/14/2002 7:44:58 AM PDT by Pokey78
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To: Pokey78
What a fascinating article! Thanks for posting it.

I especially appreciated the explanation about European attitudes and the detailed accounting of just exactly who settled Israel and when.

2 posted on 09/14/2002 8:02:40 AM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: Molly Pitcher
I believe you would like this article by a fine writer.
3 posted on 09/14/2002 8:03:55 AM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: Pokey78; joanie-f; snopercod
Nice catch; and thanks.
4 posted on 09/14/2002 8:05:01 AM PDT by First_Salute
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To: Pokey78
Nice read.
5 posted on 09/14/2002 8:11:20 AM PDT by 31R1O
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To: Pokey78
great bump
7 posted on 09/14/2002 8:21:59 AM PDT by tophat9000
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To: Pokey78
"What happens when a fundamental axiom we have believed for generations turns out to be wrong?"

Interesting article, but it fails to account for the technology of war. It's not the ideas that failed, it was a failure of military leadership - generals who sent thousands of men into the withering fire of machine guns and artillery.

Men were sacrificed because their leaders knew no better.

10 posted on 09/14/2002 8:28:56 AM PDT by etcetera
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To: Pokey78
Gelernter is always, always a fascinating read! Thanks for posting this!
11 posted on 09/14/2002 8:34:56 AM PDT by WaterDragon
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To: Thud
This is a very interesting analysis of the European elites' foreign policy phobias.
12 posted on 09/14/2002 9:42:22 AM PDT by Dark Wing
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To: Pokey78
The German, Russian and Austro-Hungarian Empires were smashed by the Great War. Gelernter doesn't mention the Ottoman Empire, which was also smashed. The Arab Nations were created by a last gasp European Colonialism, which didn't have their hearts in it. Churchill and others drew lines on the map, installed monarchies from Libya to Persia and we're still living with those consequences today. The Arabs haven't pulled themselves together to create something positive. They're pining away for something, something that never was and never can be.

In the 50's, 5000 books were published a year in Egypt in Arabic, today it's 500. That is a collapse and that is a collapse with little if any outside pressure. They could latch on to modern progress, but it seems to be slipping further and further away.

Post-war Iraq is going to be the Arab Nations big chance. I wish them success.

13 posted on 09/14/2002 9:54:34 AM PDT by Kermit
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To: Pokey78
Some interesting parallels, but the other side of the coin is that Europe's situation stems from social democracy and post-imperialism. I suppose you could tie them both in with the trauma of WWI and WWII, but whether you focus on then or now is more of a subjective call.

The European way of life numbs some characteristics and faculties, while it may support and strengthen others. It makes one less inclined to fight and risk. Were other parts of the world to have the affluence and social programs of Europe, they would react in the same way. We are the exception, as is perhaps England, which remembers both wars as deeply than any other country, if not more so. Maybe the memory of victory overcomes the remembered traumas of war.

The contrast drawn between Israeli and Arab treatment of refugees doesn't hold water. It was in Israel's interest to get as many Jews as possible, therefore they encouraged immigration at all costs and integration to the degree necessary. It was in the Arab interest to have refugees kept separate as a bargaining chip or weapon. If either group felt their interests to be different their behavior would also have been different.

It's an open question whether or not Europe may not be right about an Iraq war. Talk of Munich and appeasement accompanied our Vietnam debacle. Whether it really fits Saddam Hussein or not -- whether Saddam really is the new Hitler -- is a question that should at least be debated. Europe's policy is to let sleeping dogs lie, and it views Saddam as a sleeping dog whom it would be more dangerous to arouse than to simply let be. Europeans construct theories of their own about why our government is so determined for war. Gelehrter's view shouldn't be assumed to be more authoritative than opposing views without reference to the actual situation and stakes in the Middle East.

14 posted on 09/14/2002 10:17:56 AM PDT by x
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To: Pokey78
Montagu was secretary of state for India in Lloyd George's cabinet--a rabid anti-Zionist, a leading opponent of the Balfour Declaration, and a Jew. The British found the existence of such people as Montagu confusing. Montagu's spiritual disciples live on: One of the most unsettling, least discussed aspects of today's Israel crisis is the part well-placed American Jews in newspapers, TV, and radio have played in slanting the news against Israel. For the most part these seem to be well-meaning people who care so deeply about right and wrong, they have no time to distinguish between true and false.

Gosh, I think I understood something today.

It's all about self-hatred. Disguised in "care about right and wrong," oblivious to a distinction between true and false.

18 posted on 09/14/2002 12:41:10 PM PDT by Smile-n-Win
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To: Pokey78
Despite its lead-in and perfunctory last paragraph, this article is about European attitudes towards Jews, not appeasement.

In the effort to gain European support for Israel at this point in history, when Isreal's interests are being threatened by one dangerous dictator, it is useful to advance an accusation of appeasement and comparisons to Munich.

While I ascribe to the author's political agenda and believe that Iraqi leadership must be changed by forces outside Iraq, I view the article as presenting a narrow view of history for a particular purpose.

19 posted on 09/14/2002 12:46:12 PM PDT by Praxeologue
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To: Pokey78
This is the most descriptive line in the article:  It is a "nice" but generally accurate way of describing liberals in general. It certainly describes many liberals of my personal acquaintance, but of course does not apply to Schumer, Kennedy, Boxer, etc...

... seem to be well-meaning people who care so deeply about right and wrong, they have no time to distinguish between true and false.

25 posted on 09/29/2002 11:34:31 AM PDT by LostTribe
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To: Pokey78
Europe has earned the right to hate herself.

Damn right she has. We have nothing worthwhile to learn from these Continental pinheads. On to Baghdad!

-ccm

26 posted on 09/29/2002 10:07:37 PM PDT by ccmay
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