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To: HanneyBean
Obviously, they didn't repent, and there's no forgiveness after the fact.

You don't know.

Pray for your own salvation, and leave the judgment of others to God.

35 posted on 09/11/2002 5:51:16 AM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
Yes I do know, and I'll repeat it...they didn't repent, and are now in the hell they so richly deserve.

Go pray for yourself.
46 posted on 09/11/2002 5:56:21 AM PDT by HanneyBean
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To: sinkspur; HanneyBean; Orual
Obviously, they didn't repent, and there's no forgiveness after the fact.

You don't know.

Aquinas thought he knew - these men committed suicide, which is a mortal sin, and cannot have repented of it while they were alive by the very definition of suicide, as it was their final act. Was Aquinas wrong?

Man is made master of himself through his free-will: wherefore he can lawfully dispose of himself as to those matters which pertain to this life which is ruled by man's free-will. But the passage from this life to another and happier one is subject not to man's free-will but to the power of God. Hence it is not lawful for man to take his own life that he may pass to a happier life, nor that he may escape any unhappiness whatsoever of the present life, because the ultimate and most fearsome evil of this life is death, as the Philosopher states (Ethic. iii, 6). Therefore to bring death upon oneself in order to escape the other afflictions of this life, is to adopt a greater evil in order to avoid a lesser. On like manner it is unlawful to take one's own life on account of one's having committed a sin, both because by so doing one does oneself a very great injury, by depriving oneself of the time needful for repentance, and because it is not lawful to slay an evildoer except by the sentence of the public authority. Again it is unlawful for a woman to kill herself lest she be violated, because she ought not to commit on herself the very great sin of suicide, to avoid the lesser sir; of another. For she commits no sin in being violated by force, provided she does not consent, since "without consent of the mind there is no stain on the body," as the Blessed Lucy declared. Now it is evident that fornication and adultery are less grievous sins than taking a man's, especially one's own, life: since the latter is most grievous, because one injures oneself, to whom one owes the greatest love. Moreover it is most dangerous since no time is left wherein to expiate it by repentance.

- St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica


90 posted on 09/11/2002 6:31:15 AM PDT by general_re
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To: sinkspur
This whole paradox is one of the reasons that I ceased to be a Christian when I became old enough to construct and rationalize my own value system. I don't have to worry about this "turn the other cheek" or "forgive them, they know not what they do" stuff.

Stark bloody vengeance and punishment is what I have in mind ... and what I hope to see carried out.

200 years from now, I want their children's children's children's children to cower and cringe in fear whenever they hear the sounds of jet engines overhead because their legends tell of fire from the sky.

I want them to hide in dark caves and holes in the earth, shivering with terror whenever they hear the roar of diesel engines because the tales of their ancestors talk about metal monsters crawling over the earth, spitting death and destruction.

I want their mothers to be able to admonish them with "If you don't behave, the Pale Destroyers will come for you", and that will be enough to reduce them to quivering obesience.

I want the annihilation to be so complete that their mythology will tell them of the day of judgment when the stern gods from across the sea .. the powerful 'Mericans .. destroyed their forefathers' wickedness.
Kill them all ... nits make lice.
(COL Chivington, Sand Creek)

95 posted on 09/11/2002 6:36:03 AM PDT by BlueLancer
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To: sinkspur
Just out of curiosity...and this is a serious question - would God say the same thing about the Devil?
211 posted on 09/11/2002 8:34:23 AM PDT by goodnesswins
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