Pope Asks God to Show Mercy on Sept. 11 Attackers

Reuters via iWon.com ^ | Sept 11, 2002 | Philip Pullella

[galt-jw]

maybe when he can control the child raping clergy, he can solve the worlds problems....otherwise, shut up...and THIS is Gods right hand man?....better wake up.

[realpatriot71]

Is this just soft prejudice against old people or something?

There is no longer any respect for the aged. Proverbs tells us that it is a blessing to have grey hair. The old used to be honored and revered now they are forgotten and disrespected. It is a sign of the times - they are everywhere if you just take time to look.

[Cap'n Crunch]

Boy, I'm not doing too good on getting my point across am I?

Of course your right, I'm obviously not doing the job right.

I'll try one last time.

Most people go to purgatory. After their "sentence" they go to heaven.

Very few people go straight to heaven.

Alot of folks go to hell, and they stay there.

My apologies for butchering Our Lady's words.

[Aquinasfan]

The Jews NEVER considered the Apocryphal books to be Canon

Prior to Jesus’ time, the Jews did not have a sharply defined, universal canon of Scripture. Some groups of Jews used only the first five books of the Old Testament (the Pentateuch); some used only the Palestinian canon (39 books); some used the Alexandrian canon (46 books), and some, like the Dead Sea community, used all these and more. The Palestinian and Alexandrian canons were more normative than the others, having wider acceptance among orthodox Jews, but for Jews there was no universally defined canon to include or exclude the “deuterocanonical” books around 100 A.D.

The Apostles commissioned by Jesus, 5 however, used the Septuagint (the Old Testament in Greek which con- tained the Alexandrian canon) most of the time and must have accepted the Alexandrian canon. For example, 86 percent of Old Testament quotes in the Greek New Testament come directly from the Septuagint, not to mention numerous linguistic references. Acts 7 provides an interesting piece of evidence that justifies the Apostolic use of the Septuagint. In Acts 7:14 St. Stephen says that Jacob came to Joseph with 75 people. The Masoretic Hebrew version of Gen. 46:27 says “70,” while the Septuagint’s says “75,” the number Stephen used. Following the Apostles’ example, Stephen clearly used the Septuagint. In the mid-twentieth century, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars discovered older Hebrew manuscripts that agree with the Septuagint rather than the Masoretic texts. The Septuagint was not only used by the Apostles, but in some cases it was more accurate.

6 (We also know from other ancient Christian documents, like the Didache 7 and Pope St. Clement’s Letter to the Corinthians, that the apostles’ successors not only used the Septuagint, but quote from all of the books in the Alexandrian canon as the authoritative word of God.) There is no divinely inspired “table of contents” for the Bible, therefore, Christians need an authority, like the infallible Church established by Christ, to discern which books are the divinely inspired ones. (Indeed, even if there were such a “table of contents” list, we would need an authority to tell if the list itself were inspired.) Even many Evangelical Protestant Bible scholars admit this:

While we know that at the time of Jesus there were different canons of the Old Testament because the canonical process was not yet complete, the glorious truth is that God has invited humans to be partners in the putting together of Scripture. I think the implications are that you cannot have Scripture without the community of faith [in other words, the Church]. It’s not just a private revelation. God gives us Scripture, but then the [Church], by God’s guidance, has to choose what’s in and what’s out.”

Full discussion here.

[SoothingDave]

Sorry for the mix up and thanks for pointing out the confusion.

I see what you were saying. "After that" is rather ambiguous in this case. I was surprised that you would make such a bizarre statement.

SD

[realpatriot71]

Ok, so the Jews didn't have a Canon in the same way that we have defined a Canon now. This still doesn't negate the fact that the Jews NEVER thought the Apocryphal books were holy, nor was there a prophet in the land during the time of the writting of these books.

You want to try and pull theology from these books? Fine, but it's your own mortal soul at stake. Please, I emplore you take time with sufficient prayer and let God show you what He's always been trying to tell the world in the Bible. Use your God-given intellect and search and look for yourself.

[RnMomof7]

And I repeat my demand for an apology.

For what ? For saying this?

"Sorry you do not like the possibility that they burn in hell ..but odds are unless they repented and believed they do today burn in hell"

You imply that the forgiveness of Christ is not unconditional when you say it is for a time..Is the forgiveness of Christ unconditional or can he take it back? That is the heart of that comment

[Aquinasfan]

This still doesn't negate the fact that the Jews NEVER thought the Apocryphal books were holy

Where do you get that from? There is evidence in the Bible itself indicating that the Apostles used the Septuagint (See my previous post to you*). Whose canon of the Old Testament do you trust, the canon of the Apostles or the canon of a Jewish Council that rejected the canonicity of the New Testament?

*In Acts 7:14 St. Stephen says that Jacob came to Joseph with 75 people. The Masoretic Hebrew version of Gen. 46:27 says “70,” while the Septuagint’s says “75,” the number Stephen used. Following the Apostles’ example, Stephen clearly used the Septuagint.

[realpatriot71]

There is evidence in the Bible itself indicating that the Apostles used the Septuagint

I don't see this as being a problem. Show me one quote from any of the Apacryphal books used by an Apostle anywhere in the NT. It's a large leap of logic to say because they quoted the Septuagint in one place that they gave all the book contained therin blanket admonition as official OT. OT Conon are those books written by a prophet or during the time of a prophet. It's a simple concept really.

[glegakis]

Catholicism *is* true Christianity. All other Christian sects are offshoots of Catholicism at best You are wrong. And you perpetuate the typical myths and misunderstandings.

1. Where in the Bible does it say you should pray to anyone but Heavenly Father?

2. Most Catholics "seemingly" revere Mary over Jesus

3. The touching and kissing of statues that represent so-called saints. I call that idolatry. What do you call it?

4. Chanting and repeating canned prayers and massaging rosary beads and incense burning??? What's up with that?

5. Believing that God and Jesus are the same personage. What sense does that make? 6. Preists can't marry. If Heavenly father wants anything for his children is to have a family. All of us. 7. Transconfiguration.

Answer these questions honestly and straightforwardly and convince me that Christ would approve of them or that any of thes practices are supported by the scriptures.

Greg

[SoothingDave]

OT Canon are those books written by a prophet or during the time of a prophet. It's a simple concept really.

First off, how do you know the authorship and time frame of each of the OT books? You argue as if you have absolute knowledge, when I don't think anybody knows for sure the authorship of all the books.

Second, what is a "prophet?" Isn't it someone who speaks for God, delivers God's message to the world?

Then your argument is circular and self-defeating. If the authors of what you call the "Apocrypha" were truly inspired, then they were "prophets" and they obviously then lived during the "time of a prophet." It's tautological.

SD

[Bigg Red]

I like that quote you posted that contains

But that act of petition to God does not remove the hijackers--or their supporters, or their would-be imitators--from the arena of human justice, where their past evil acts must be punished, and their future evil plans thwarted.

I can forgive the hi-jackers in my heart -- some day -- but all terrorists must be held accountable for what they do. Loving one's enemies does not require letting them get away with murder and other crimes.

[Bigg Red]

It is up to God to forgive. It is our job to introduce all terrorist to him...

I love that one!

[SoothingDave]

1. Where in the Bible does it say you should pray to anyone but Heavenly Father?

Where in the Bible does it say that death is a barrier, dividing the Body of Christ (the collection of believers) into two pieces?

2. Most Catholics "seemingly" revere Mary over Jesus

If you ever attended or understood a Mass you would never say this.

3. The touching and kissing of statues that represent so-called saints. I call that idolatry. What do you call it?

Reverence. We celebrate the wonders God has done in transforming mere humans into beings worthy of being adopted sons of God.

4. Chanting and repeating canned prayers and massaging rosary beads and incense burning??? What's up with that?

Chanting is merely singing. "He who sings, prays twice," says Augustine.

As for having "canned" prayers, they are part and parcel of a liturgical people, who keep a remembrance of the entire history of salvation. We all enjoy a well-written text, else FR would be devoid of substance. To think that God will punish or disapprove of a person who expresses his heart with the words written by another is to imagine a God out of touch with humanity.

Likewise, humanity delights in providing the best the senses can sense in service to God. Sights and smells and sounds move men and women deeply. Again, to imagine a God who desires us to worship Him only by sensory deprivation is to imagine a God who has no knowledge of what being a man is about.

5. Believing that God and Jesus are the same personage. What sense does that make?

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. You'll have to explain your fallacious notion of what Catholics believe further.

6. Preists can't marry. If Heavenly father wants anything for his children is to have a family. All of us.

Then why did He inspire Paul to counsel that chastity is the desired state, and that marriage should be chosen only if chastity would lead one to sin? It's in the Bible.

7. Transconfiguration.

I think you mean "transmogrification." It is simply a case of the Catholics taking the Bible literally and Protestants not.

SD

[Conservative til I die]

Catholicism *is* true Christianity. All other Christian sects are offshoots of Catholicism at best You are wrong. And you perpetuate the typical myths and misunderstandings.

1. Where in the Bible does it say you should pray to anyone but Heavenly Father?

First off, if you're gonna accuse Catholics of heresy, you might as well get your own story straight on to whom a Christian can pray. First, a Christian can pray to Jesus and to the Holy Spirit, considering they are both God as well. (Never minding the fact that no one really prays to the Spirit much. But it is not disallowed).

Second, the question you are asking really makes no sense. In actuality, I should be asking *you* the question here, since you're making an accusation about something that is not an official Church teaching. I can't defend something that we don't teach, if you know what I mean, so the question is moot. The question I would ask *you* is: "Where in the Catholic Catechism does it say that Catholics are to pray to anyone other than in the Trinity?"

2. Most Catholics "seemingly" revere Mary over Jesus

Again, your question is deficient. How can you expect me to defend against something so vague as to require the word 'seemingly' attached to it. It's so vague that anything I can say doesn't meet your definition of 'seemingly' since it is so fluid.

But anyway, your question is not something that can indict the Church itself, but individual, misguided adherents. It is like asking why do some Episcopalian Bishops endorse gay marriage. Or why some Catholics are pro-abortion and pro-female priesthood.

My answer to you is that the Catholic Church again does not teach that we are to adore Mary more than Jesus nor worship her in anyway. However in some areas there are Catholics that place an undue amount of attention on Mary. All I can say is they are wrong. Just like anyone who were to worship the Pope is wrong. Again, it's an indictment of those individuals and groups, not the Church.

3. The touching and kissing of statues that represent so-called saints. I call that idolatry. What do you call it?

Veneration. It is showing admiration towards obviously special people. It is why they are saints. Again, this tends to be a more group or cultural issue. I personally am not big on such outward displays. And as I have said before, it is not Church teaching that we should worship saints. Now, you could argue that yes, the Church doesn't condone it officially, but winks at it off-the-record. Well that is a stupid idea. Why would the Church bother to deny something in public that it OK's privately? What would the Church have to gain by denying its teachings? If anything, that would be disrespect to the saints we "worship" by denying it publicly. For example, if we thought of St. Mary as our Goddess, wouldn't it be blasphemy if we were to say "Oh well we don't condone worship of saints like Mary and we don't consider her a deity" just for the sake of good PR with other Christian sects that we don't agree with anyway?

4. Chanting and repeating canned prayers

For one, the "Our Father" a/k/a the Lord's Prayer is found in the Bible, and Jesus Himself taught us to pray this way (in addition to praying that way Himself). For other prayers, I don't get exactly what is wrong with reciting particularly beautiful written prayers. I think it's more spiritual than saying "Hey God, what's up." Catholics tend to have a much more positive attitude towards external manifestations of spirituality. It's like making beautiful art devoted to God. There's a certain heightening of spirituality in that.

and massaging rosary beads

Again, it's the external spirituality thing. If it's the rosary itself you have a problem with, this is merely a prayer asking Mary to pray for us. That is what all "prayers to saints" are. They are not prayers to the saints themselves. They are prayers asking them to pray for us. Go and actually read these prayers and you'll see there is no worship involved.

and incense burning

Well, I will admit ignorance as to the spiritual importance of incense burning, but incense I know has always had some sort of special quality to it that makes it pleasing to use in worship. But it is used as a part of the pagaentry of worship. Like priests wearing certain colors and what not. We don't believe it has some magical talisman quality, if that is what you're getting at.

??? What's up with that?

5. Believing that God and Jesus are the same personage. What sense does that make?

I was under the impression you were a Christian. Am I wrong in this assumption? Or are you some sort of fringe Christian or cultist? I don't have time to go into the definition of the Trinity, but I'll leave you with this simplistic explanation. The Trinity is made up of three different persons who are all one God. I'm not sure what you're question is asking. Are you asking if we believe God and Jesus are the same person? As in the Father turned into Jesus? I believe that this is the "modalist" heresy that the Oneness Pentecostals adhere to. There are many other heresies associated with the nature of the Trinity. You should read them. They are interesting, and in a way go a long way to defining what the Trinity is (by defining what it is not).

6. Preists can't marry. If Heavenly father wants anything for his children is to have a family.

Where in the Bible is this? I'm not saying GOd ddoesn't love the family or that he doesn't desire us to have families, but honestly, this sounds like your own personal opinion on this. The reason we have celibate priests is one of discipline, not dogma. This means it is not an absolute teaching. It can change and it has. In the early years of the Church, there were married priests. The reason the Church has changed this is because a celibate priesthood allows one to devote himself to Christ fully. His flock becomes his family in a way (that's why we call priests 'Father'). We also cite the fact that Jesus was celibate (as well as male). St. Paul also praised celibacy. However, an interesting thing to note is that the Eastern Catholic Church, which is fully and legitimately Catholic, allows married priests. The Church also allows Lutheran and Episcopalian pastors who convert to stay married. I'm not sure if there are hierarchical restrictions placed on these men (such as not allowing them to become Bishops or something like that).

All of us.

7. Transconfiguration.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. I checked the word out on Google, and nothing is coming up that is related to Catholicism. What action are you trying to describe?

Answer these questions honestly and straightforwardly and convince me that Christ would approve of them or that any of thes practices are supported by the scriptures.

I question your need for them to adhere to the Scriptures since you seem to have a problem with the Trinity and whether or not Jesus can be prayed to.

[Conservative til I die]

Wow, you sound like a real mental giant with a lot of constructive words to add to the discussion! Such great grammar and capitalization!

[galt-jw]

wow, sounds like you, as with all mystified statists of intellectual feebility, have to resort to straw man argumentation and ad hominem attacks, kinda like the klinton crowd....but you didnt respond to anything in the post itself.

[DaGman]

Good God! This thread brought every Catholic hater out of the woodwork.

Excuse me but are the Catholic haters arguing that Jesus was as vindictive as they are? Apparently they are. And they call theirselves "christian"..

[Conservative til I die]

Don't get me wrong. My post wasn't an ad hominem attack to refute you. It was just a straight insult to you.

[Conservative til I die]

but you didnt respond to anything in the post itself.

Dummy, there wasn't anything of substance to actually respond to in the post!!!!! Go be a hater someplace else.