Pope Asks God to Show Mercy on Sept. 11 Attackers

and that there is a documented history of extra-biblical teachings and organizational decisions that went into the creation of the Roman Catholic organization.

And of course you'll gladly point us to this "documented history," yes?

I am going to do what no one else has the balls to do. You are a self righteous, arrogant, person who needs to repent for your prideful ways.

I disagree.

Ummm...Protestants don't have Maccabees, Wisdom and a few others. Luther took them out, so they're not going to find some of the Catholic teachings in their bibles.

Their loss.

thank you for posting what you did. Your comments have put another piece in a puzzle for me. And confirmed something that I really wish weren't true...thank you again.

Can we forgive them, but STILL shoot them?

Absolutely!

And of course you'll gladly point us to this "documented history," yes?

You bet. But you'll have to wait a while since I'm at work now. Hopefully I'll have something by this time tomorrow.

If Luther hadn't deliberately removed books from the Bible containing references to praying for the dead you would know that this practice is both historical and scriptural (2 Maccabees 12:38-46).

Yeah, but apparently there's a "documented history" out there showing we added these books later, as another poster mentioned. I eagerly await a link to this "documented history."

The Pope isn't securing forgiveness for anyone. He is merely asking.

BTW It has been a year since they died so they were either in hell or not What is praying going to do get them out?

Scripturally, the Bible in 2 Maccabees clearly states that it is an honorable practice to pray for the dead.

How can this be logically? Time exists within God. As an eternal being, God transcends time. God sees yesterday, today and tomorrow simultaneously. So if it is possible to pray for the dead at all, it doesn' t matter whether they died yesterday, five minutes ago or five centuries ago.

But our prayers are only efficacious for souls in purgatory, not those who have gone to either glory or damnation at their individual judgement at death.

And I still think it is kinda tacky praying to all all just merciful etc etc being to help Him make up His mind. Implies he can be swayed

Of course God cannot be swayed by us in the sense that we have any control over Him. Prayer is ultimately an irreducible mystery in which we are commanded to participate.

How do you excommunicate Muslims?

Same way they did Protestants presumably; they didn't believe in the Pope's authority either. It's a symbolic act.

Regards, Ivan

Just out of curiosity...and this is a serious question - would God say the same thing about the Devil?

please clarify your comments.

Can we forgive them, but STILL shoot them? Hope so. The terrorists need to be cleansed from the earth, and God helps them that help themselves.

I have a great deal of trouble with the forgiveness thing. Ironically, the Sunday before 9/11, the local pastor gave a message about forgiveness. He said that Christians get really messed up about the forgiveness thing. Forgiveness is not saying, "That's OK. No problem. I don't mind that you just murdered my wife." Forgiveness is Christian responsibility. We are responsible for each other. We must hold each other responsible. Our responsibility is to pray for others. We hold each other accountable for actions in this life. If you commit a crime, you must pay the consequences. No free tickets. We have the right to hold criminals liable for Earthly crimes. We have no right to judge their souls. As someone said, that's above our paygrade. so the short answer at my church is "Yes." We can blow them to Hell. God will decide residency.

Smite the damned Phillistines!

Yeah, and I disagree with your defense of such a murderous and corrupt secular organization as the catholic church is.

ill do my best. don't expect too much.

Jesus said the church (the body of his followers) would do what He did and even more. The Pope apparently believes this. Apparently a Pope's job is to take this seriously.

Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Forgiveness is for those who repent. Blanket forgiveness is a myth of the anti-Christ lie of Ecumenism.

Yep. None of these people are asking for forgiveness, so why is the Pope asking God to forgive them when they've shown no signs that they're remorseful of their actions whatsoever?

First, I think forgiveness is very hard.

Second, how the heck can you know what these stupid men thought seconds before their deaths. Remember, supposedly only one or two on each plane knew what exactly was happening. The others thought they were hijacking the planes and found out moments before their own deaths. Perhaps they did ask for forgiveness seconds before their deaths. They can't really "show us any signs" of being remorseful, can they?

Also, the Pope is from a religion that believes in Purgatory. Whether you believe it or not, he does believe in it. That's why the Pope can ask God to forgive.

God is kind and merciful, He is also just.

Question to Protestants:

By what Biblical authority did Luther remove books from the Bible?

Interesting post. This is where you get "purgatory" from? Looks to be a bit of a stretch my friend.

We shall see.

2 Mac?! Try using a book of actual Biblical Cannon.

It is a book of Biblical Canon (one 'n'). Martin Luther yanked it and 6 other books. He wanted to yank more, including New Testament books, but stopped himself. If he had done so, you would no longer believe in those NT books either. This disconnect is all traced directly back to Martin Luther.

Matt 12:32 supports purgatory? Hardly. It only states that those who refuse to listen to the Holy Spirit, those who resist the prompting of the Holy spirit, will not be saved.

I do apologize. These verses do need a little spelling out. The key here is not about the Holy Spirit, it's that those who blaspheme the Spirit will not be forgiven in this world *or* the *next* world.

It's an obvious statement, and not one that supports and purgatory.

1 Cor 3 is a chapter discussing the ministers of God and their teaching will be tested. You're stretching here.

Again, you miss the key point. The testing as done by fire.

If you can come up with one good Biblical verse saying: when we die there is a place called purgatory where we are cleansed before going to having I'll concede the point.

Well see, then us Catholics are damned if we do and damned if we don't. If we say something, you want biblical proof. If we provide it, you have to have it in a very specific statement, rather than piecing together various supporting texts. So instead of saying "pray for the dead so their sins may be forgiven them," you say that isn't clear enough, even though it basically says (even if not explicitly in exact words) that a) the dead exist somewhere between Heaven and Earth and Hell (I don't think people in Heaven sin, and people in Hell are beyond salvation, and obviously they are dead, so they exist in some other realm), b) their sins can be forgiven, meaning that they are stuck in this other realm until their sins are forgiven and c) that our prayers help.

But Protestants, who consider themselves good at biblical interpretation (the heart of Sola Scriptura) all of a sudden play dumb when it's a Catholic doctrine involved, and need everything spelled out in the most literal of terms.

It's like Sola Scriptura, which is not spelled out in those words nor is it spelled out that clearly, to use your example, God saying "There is this bible, and it is the only thing you need. You need nothing else. Have fun." Yet Protestants can piece together in kernel form various texts and poof, a concise theory of Sola Scriptura. Yet when Catholics do the same thing, it's not good enough.

"In every religious system, except that of the New Testament, the doctrine of purgatory after death and prayers for the dead have always found a place. In ancient and modern times, we find that paganism leaves hope after death for sinners, who, at the time of their departure, are unrepentant, and consciously unfit for heaven. For this purpose a "middle state" was invented in which guilt could be removed in the future world by means of purgatorial pains.

So what does this have to do with anything? It just means that some other religions believe in a sort of "limbo state." By your logic, then, Christianity is false because almost every other religion, pagans included, believe in a deity. By your logic! Somehow, because others believe this, that makes it false? Sorry, that's lame logic.

In Greece the doctrine of a purgatory was taught by the very chief of the philosophers. Thus Plato, speaking of the future judgment of the dead, holds out the hope of final deliverance for all, but maintains that, of "those who are judged," some must first "proceed to a subterranean place of judgment, where they shall sustain the punishment they have deserved." In pagan Rome, purgatory was also held up before the minds of men.

Again, by your logic, pagans like Socrates and the Romans also believed in deities that control the universe. By your logic that makes Christian belief in a deity false, nothing more than a pagan knock-off. Use a better line of reasoning. This one is a dead end.

In Egypt, substantially the same doctrine of purgatory was taught. But once this doctrine of purgatory was admitted into the popular mind, then the door was opened to all manner of priestly extortions. Prayers for the dead can be completely efficacious without the priest as intermediary and no priestly functions can be rendered unless there be special pay for them. Therefore, in every land we find the pagan priesthood "devouring widow's houses," and making merchandise of the tender feelings of sorrowing relatives sensitively alive to the immortal happiness of their be loved dead.

Again, same line of reasoning as above.

Such was the operation of the doctrine of purgatory and prayers for the dead among avowed and acknowledged pagans, and it differs in no way from the operation of the same doctrine as taught by the Roman Catholic Church.

THe belief in deities that control the universe does not differ from that of the pagans either. By your logic, that makes belief in a deity a pagan rip-off.

There are the same extortions in both.

The doctrine of purgatory is purely pagan,

The blief in a god or gods is purely pagan

and cannot for a moment stand in the light of Scripture. For those who die in Christ no purgatory is or can be needed; for "the blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son, cleanseth from all sin." If this be true, where can there be the need for any other cleansing? On the other hand, for those who die without personal union with Christ, and consequently unwashed, unjustified, unsaved, there can be no other cleansing; for, while "he that hath the Son hath life, he that hath not the Son hath not life," and never can have it. Search the Scripture through, and it will be found that, in regard to all who "die in their sins." The decree of God is irreversible: "Let him that is unjust be unjust still, and let him that is filthy be filthy still.""