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America. “I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her commodious harbors and her ample rivers-- and it was not there... in her fertile fields and boundless forests-- and it was not there... in her rich mines and her vast world commerce-- and it was not there... in her democratic Congress and matchless Constitution-- and it was not there. Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.”
(Around 1840) by Alexis de Tocqueville, author of Democracy in America, a book which was assigned to the entire Republican freshman class of the 104th congress.

Neither secularism nor humanism will provide any basis for goodness. Such goodness which will allow us to persevere will only be found in the Christian principles that guided our founding fathers.

Consider, as an analogy, the French Revolution. During France’s Reign of Terror, France was declared to be a nation of atheists by the National Assembly. They outlawed religion and the Bible and declared their gods to be liberty and reason. Chaos ensued. One million Frenchmen were ultimately murdered and destruction was inevitable. Robespierre then proclaimed in the Convention that belief in the existence of God was necessary to the principles of virtue and morality on which the Republic was founded. And on the 7th of May, the national representatives voted by acclamation that “the French people acknowledged the existence of the Supreme Being and the immortality of the soul.”

I could go on and on with the example of the Roman empire, their predecessor, the Greeks, the Medes, ad infinitum. But I think you get the point.

America parallels this. Do you think it mere coincidence that America's problems were relatively minor when our children began their school day with prayer, Bible reading and the Pledge of Allegience?

After religious morals, values and ethics were abolished in the classroom, in the home and even in the quasi-Christian denominations, in short order, our culture collapsed.

Do I need to share with you the statistics of the pandemic state of crime, sexually transmitted diseases and social chaos that typifies our society? Surely you cannot be serious.

To all the skeptics, again, it matters not what an individual's philosophy was. What is significant is that America's abiding principles found their basis in Bible. That is history. Not speculation. What matters is their collective, not personal, agenda.

This purports to be a conservative forum. If you intend to return America to some semblance of sanity without absolute reliance upon God through Jesus Christ, your cause is already lost. It cannot be done. To ignore the lessons of history doom us to repeat it in the future.

"America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.”

I don't think anyone can argue with this, furthermore it's clear that the founders agreed, hence their many statements about the need for a "virtuous people" for the success of a free society. Jefferson in particular is on record regarding the need for religion to ground the people in morality, though I certainly do not think he was a "reborn" type Christian such as we know today.

Regarding your other points, about the coincidence of declining moral values with declining religious values, I am sure you are right that there is a correlation. The Left, and these days that seems to include the National Council of Churches, seeks to destroy religion for a reason. I for one believe that the current campaign for the separation of church and state is part of this attempt. Even though I believe strongly in the principle of separation of church and state.

"What is significant is that America's abiding principles found their basis in Bible. "

I believe that America's abiding principles are freedom and liberty, especially for the individual. If these principles are in the Bible, they are certainly not its main thrust, as they are America's. But if you'd like to argue that our system of freedom cannot work without the moral principles found in the Bible, I am probably ready to agree with you.

I disagree that secularism and humanism cannot provide for such goodness. Sympathy is something
inherent in human beings. And so is self interest. You put those two together you get a natural
inclination to civilize. And the principles come from that sympathy and self interest, that gives
you the ability to figure out what hurts others by applying it through imagination to yourself.
And we then make rules that accord to what we feel are rights for ourselves and then others.
We have the sympathy and self interest as reasons to protect those rights. Whether or not God
created them, they are wired into most humans. And if you are an agnostic or atheist, to me, there is as much
reason not to harm anyone or break those rights, because the uncertainty of what comes after life;
and that if there is nothing, we must value our time on earth and try to help everyone lead an
enjoyable life, or in other words, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Of course it
can be argued that the opposite will happen, but as an agnostic, I can say that I feel a strong moral
duty and sympathy for myself and others based on keeping a civilization and promoting happiness
and survival.
As for the french revolution. Bloody, yes. Godless, yes. But an interesting parallel
of civil strife would be the American civil war, where a comparable amount of bodies were laid
out and killed over control and land. Bloody, yes. Godless, no. As so many have noted how
religious our roots are and how everything was peaceful when we all prayed.
And, let's also keep in mind that, Robespierre was crazy about a month into the revolution.

I also disagree that our problems were minor. I think repressed is the proper word.
Women's rights, civil rights for blacks and native Americans, military testing on civilians,
and development of nuclear bombs, fear of being bombed by other countries with those same bombs.
These were problems that were rising and bound to have
consequences. Improved communications and a growing and still young industrial economy, continual immigration, discovery of the
importance of environmentalism all helped to fuel these problems coming into the forefront.
Partially cause we had time to concentrate on domestic problems after the war, and as soon as
we found out what the other guy was thinking, we didn't like him.
The entire dynamic of our country was changing and our population
was growing exponentially. With all this growing and changing, in a capitalist country, certain
limits have to be made, which forces a polarization, and brings new ideas. With 300,000,000 million
people in a country that is in a stage of development that there is no historical predecessor to
use as a reference, is it a surprise that there are so many problems? In a society where science
moves ahead of philosophy? This helps to account
for our countries differences, things weren't so good back then. At a certain point in the peaceful
past, duels were legal, people only lived until 50, and often in what today would be called
squaller. And if you are saying polio was a minor problem, I'd disagree. Disease was very widespread
and far less treatable in general. Take a look at the cause of death for many famous men, is it coincidental that
you don't see a lot of typhoid and diphtheria deaths there days? You only think there is more
disease because communication is so much better and there are so many more total people, living
in this same small space, which incidentally, in and of itself can be a reason for disease development.
More people with less water and more chemicals, etc.

It ought to be taken into account that problems in a society might occur for reasons
other then god. Maybe it has other roots, like how fast our society moves, how hard it works,
how much freedom we have (or don't have), how excessive we are, how we've taken luxury for granted.
And maybe it's none of these, or some of all of them, but they are all viable options, as well as other ideas, and further
ideas that haven't' been thought of yet.

As far as no prayer in school. What about all the prayer at home; does that count for nothing?
Isn't that a parents job to instill principles to their own child? Shouldn't they have a say?
School to me, is for learning reading, writing and arithmetic, there is time at home after school, on weekends
on vacation, and between classes for a child to learn about god, from his parents or from himself.
The law wasn't meant to oppress Christians, But rather to guard against strife from parents who think differently. To them it's comparable to as if your kid was forced praying to Allah. Majority or not, you
cannot trance on others rights. If you eliminate prayer of all types, then you eliminate the
strife that can come from bringing something personal from an individual, to a group who didn't ask
for it. Actually, when I went to high school a few years ago, we had something calling "prayer
at the pole", anyone who wanted to pray could, a few minutes before school started; no one complained.

I also disagree that
god isn't as involved in our society, and considering there are more people now, I would bet that
more people pray now than they did long ago in total.

(it should also be mentioned that our forefathers lived in the context of their times.
Look at how different their views were on slaves for example, then our own. So is it surprising
that we may have different ideas on god. Particularly with all the communication and spread of new ideas, etc)

And, to all the skeptics, again, the holy roman empire was founded on biblical principles, doesn't
mean it was a good or right thing to do. And just as important is that this country was based equally
on checking those biblical principles, principles that are inherent in humans without religion.

If you intend to return America to some semblance of sanity with absolute reliance upon God
through Jesus Christ, your cause is already lost. It cannot be done. To ignore the lessons of
history doom us to repeat it in the future.