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To: branicap; vooch; getoffmylawn; DTA; joan; FireWall; kosta50; SANDNES
branicap, the experiences you describe are fascinating, tragic and chilling. I have no personal connection to the former Yugoslavia, but I hope that you and other honest people from the former Yugoslavia with first hand experience on Oric, Srebrenica and the Bosnian war have gone beyond a "justice will not be done" fatalistic attitude and have proceeded to the step of getting organized and promoting important truths to the policy makers and opinion shapers in the "west". Izetbegovic and his fellow criminals can and must be stopped from winning the PR war.

I believe that an organized campaign for truth and justice on Srebrenica should be spearheaded by advancing certain facts that are common knowledge in this forum and have a great potential for reversing the anti-Serbian hysteria if they are promoted to a degree that the western press cannot ignore. The points that I see as having not only factual validity but also the power to change western public opinion are the following:

(1) Oric and others in the Izetbegovic regime are guilty of crimes in the Srebrenica area equal or worse than those attributed to the Bosnian Serb leadership. They committed many of these crimes while operating from the supposedly demilitarized safe haven of Srebrenica.

(2) The failure of ICTY to indict Oric and others in the Izetbegovic regime despite overwhelming damning evidence constitutes irrefutable proof of its anti-Serb bias.

(3) The evacuation of Srebrenica was not a result of any major Serb attack but of orders by the Izetbegovic regime with the explicit goal to fraudulently present all military and civilian deaths as results of a "genocide".

(4) Major battles took place after the evacuation with at least hundreds (and most likely more than one thousand) of Muslim battle casualties.

(5) The bodies found are only around 2000, not 5000 or 6000 as fraudulently rumored and written in many reports.

(6) The recent Bosnian Serb report is consistent with the number of bodies found and with the irrefutable fact that a large number belongs to combat casualties. This report is more reliable than poorly corroborated reports from Muslim sources.

(7) The Dutch report, while understandably putting most blame on Mladic for civilian deaths after the Muslim exodus, finds very little evidence against Karadzic and none against Milosevic. On the contrary, it ascribes significant blame on the Izetbegovic regime for war crimes in the Srebrenica area as well as for sending the Muslim combatants of Srebrenica, along with hapless civilians, to a series of hopeless battles in order to gain a PR victory.

14 posted on 09/05/2002 10:55:58 AM PDT by pythagorean
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To: pythagorean; All
Pythagorean, excellent points, I would add:

(1) [Oric and others in the Izetbegovic regime are guilty of crimes in the Srebrenica area equal or worse than those attributed to the Bosnian Serb leadership. They committed many of these crimes while operating from the supposedly demilitarized safe haven of Srebrenica.]

Izetbegovic as a supreme commander and Oric et. al as field commanders violated international law and Geneva convention by using civilians as a shield for military activities.

(2) [The failure of ICTY to indict Oric and others in the Izetbegovic regime despite overwhelming damning evidence constitutes irrefutable proof of its anti-Serb bias.]

The fact that Oric walks free in Tuzla shows that IFOR provides shelter for alleged war criminal.

(3) The evacuation of Srebrenica was not a result of any major Serb attack but of orders by the Izetbegovic regime with the explicit goal to fraudulently present all military and civilian deaths as results of a "genocide".

ICTY judgement of 'genocide' in Srebrenica case is the most blatant case of dilution of the term genocide, practice that killed 200 Million only in 20th Century

Those killed are presented as "men and boys" although only 12 or so were below conscription age.

(4)[Major battles took place after the evacuation with at least hundreds (and most likely more than one thousand) of Muslim battle casualties.]

NATO recon planes were flying overhead -there is no secret what happened on the ground. (5)[The bodies found are only around 2000, not 5000 or 6000 as fraudulently rumored and written in many reports.]

Point 1:

Red Cross and other reports state only that people are missing, not killed. Many of those missing are found in other BA units and after the war voted on OSCE elections. Some of them live overseas in Ireland, Holland and United States without informing their families.

Point2: Oric troops killed over 1000 Serbs in vicinity of Srebrenica. ICTY may or may not use their bodies as a proof of the crime of Bosnian Serbs.

(6)[The recent Bosnian Serb report is consistent with the number of bodies found and with the irrefutable fact that a large number belongs to combat casualties. This report is more reliable than poorly corroborated reports from Muslim sources.]

That report is corroborated by Dutch NIOD report, and Dutch were not friendly toward the Serbs. It showed heavy military activity in Srebrenica. (7) [The Dutch report, while understandably putting most blame on Mladic for civilian deaths after the Muslim exodus, finds very little evidence against Karadzic and none against Milosevic. On the contrary, it ascribes significant blame on the Izetbegovic regime for war crimes in the Srebrenica area as well as for sending the Muslim combatants of Srebrenica, along with hapless civilians, to a series of hopeless battles in order to gain a PR victory.]

The point to remember is: Muslims have 55 years of experience. They walked free for crimes commited in WWII as Waffen SS : Communist regime exploited their fear of punishment and as long as they were obedient, they were safe. Only those who oposed Communists were prosecuted. The climate of lies was present in Bosnia for 55 years. Moslems became experts in deception. It has nothing to do with religion, but the religius norms do help.

18 posted on 09/05/2002 1:38:44 PM PDT by DTA
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To: pythagorean
Since I was included, I will respond as well. First let me say, this is an awesome post by all of you.

As far as brining Orich to justice, he will be dumped when he becomes a liability and a public affairs burden to those who are sheltering him. And branicap explaind what that means. For now, it's still not front-page news, so no one is a hurry.

We knew very well what the Taliban were doing, but they were our own creation and were needed for the now stagnant Caspean Sea oil project. When it becamse apparent that Osama was a "guest" of Mullah Omar, all of a sudden (!) the issue of (mis)treatment of Afghan women and widespread pederasty became front news items. Orich will follow suit, just as Noriega did, and just as Thachi and his gang will when the political climate changes. They are just "spares." There will always be plenty of Serbs willing to turn the tide and become loyal "allies" like the Northern Alliance did. This is all a chess game and small $hit-shoveling people like ethnic Tajiks and warring Balkanites are the foot-pounding peons doing the dirty work for the chessmasters.

Unfortunately, some of you still believe in justice, and all that crap. That's sad. If a policeman could not stop you and fine you, or even dragg you into jail, would you mind his radar? Might is right, and always has been, and always will be. Justice and all that is for the stupid and the naive, take your pick.

The sponsors from Washington have become very uneasy about international courts and mostly likely can't wait to wrap up the comedy show with Miloshevich and then pull the plug on the whole thing. Those who are building a case against Orich can probably look elsewhere but not in the Hague. That "court" will be shut down as soon as Miloshevich is "found" guilty.

21 posted on 09/05/2002 6:18:39 PM PDT by kosta50
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To: vooch; getoffmylawn; DTA; joan; FireWall; SANDNES
Since I was included, I will respond as well. First let me say, this is an awesome post by all of you.

As far as brining Orich to justice, he will be dumped when he becomes a liability and a public affairs burden to those who are sheltering him. And branicap explaind what that means. For now, it's still not front-page news, so no one is a hurry.

We knew very well what the Taliban were doing, but they were our own creation and were needed for the now stagnant Caspean Sea oil project. When it becamse apparent that Osama was a "guest" of Mullah Omar, all of a sudden (!) the issue of (mis)treatment of Afghan women and widespread pederasty became front news items. Orich will follow suit, just as Noriega did, and just as Thachi and his gang will when the political climate changes. They are just "spares." There will always be plenty of Serbs willing to turn the tide and become loyal "allies" like the Northern Alliance did. This is all a chess game and small $hit-shoveling people like ethnic Tajiks and warring Balkanites are the foot-pounding peons doing the dirty work for the chessmasters.

Unfortunately, some of you still believe in justice, and all that crap. That's sad. If a policeman could not stop you and fine you, or even dragg you into jail, would you mind his radar? Might is right, and always has been, and always will be. Justice and all that is for the stupid and the naive, take your pick.

The sponsors from Washington have become very uneasy about international courts and mostly likely can't wait to wrap up the comedy show with Miloshevich and then pull the plug on the whole thing. Those who are building a case against Orich can probably look elsewhere but not in the Hague. That "court" will be shut down as soon as Miloshevich is "found" guilty.

23 posted on 09/05/2002 6:22:04 PM PDT by kosta50
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