Soldiers Report Gun Glitches

Defense Week | September 3, 2002 | By Nathan Hodge

[ElectricStrawberry]

Can't say that I ever had a problem with my SAW or M-16A2, but the M-9 blows (I was in when they did away with the .45).

[ctdonath2]

Ditto. If a direct gut-spewing hit from a .308 doesn't always stop a woodchuck from running many meters, don't expect 100% reliable performance on people.

That said, armor-piercing .223 is not intended for use on unarmored rag-clad zealots. Of course it will pretty much slip through a Taliban unnoticed, as it's designed to penetrate something much harder. Just going to standard lead-core .223 would probably help immensely. Use armor-piercing ammo on armor, not on non-armor.

[Poohbah]

I liked the .45 a lot--it seemed to fit me like a nicely tailored suit. The M9 is a PITA for me to hold (I don't have small hands, but you need above-average size hands to get a solid grip on a double-row 9MM), and I never liked the trigger pull (it just felt odd on single action, and it was WAY too long on DA).

[sawsalimb]

Good point-objects impacting other objects at high velocity can do some very strange things sometimes. I've been in the innards of a number of whitetails after they've been shot,and can say with a high degree of confidence that bullets just act weird,once in a while.

[Cogadh na Sith]

Maybe a better answer to this is the shrike. http://www.aresdefense.com This might be interesting too you.

Yippee.... Someone reinvented the Stoner Rifle. For some reason the SEALs in VN loooved the Stoner, not many other people did.

I don't see the good in that belt-fed M-16. Now you have all of the troubles and reliability hang-ups of a belt-fed weapon without the heat-dissipating more robust action capable of sustained cyclic firing.

Is the Shrike a point weapon? and area weapon? an Assault rifle? or a Support weapon? None of the above. It's a novelty.

[Cogadh na Sith]

Ya but I know you would like to shoot one, just because you like to shoot

Oh, Ok... I agree :).

I think my favorite right now is shooting blackpowder--I never really understood modern weapons until I shot blackpowder...

[Squantos]

I found while active duty that GI's will complain even if ya hung em with a new rope..... That said the M16 is a tool, the M14 is a tool, a rock is a tool and one just has to use and maintain what they are given to accomplish the task at hand. I was lucky enough to carry the M1A and 1911A1 for my EOD duties.

I feel that the change of 460 meter max effective range to well over 800 meters for the M16 says alot about alledged improvements. The slower twist, lighter bullet combination was a better killer but the heavier bullet faster twist barrel on the current crop of mouse guns is more accurate.

I have always felt "hits" are what counted. Nothing less that a solid center of mass hit. That said hollowpoint ammunition "IS" allowed for counter terrorist operations and as no such "war" has been declared in our recent trend of police actions against said terrorists I wonder why that policy (yes it is policy and I still possess message traffic stating such) is not extended to rifle ammunition as it is handgun ammunition for such "anti-terrorism" operations.

If we can not for budget reasons change to a larger caliber primary weapon then adopt the modern hollowpoint such as the sierra matchkings series that can still punch a vest just fine with out any steel core whizbang whatchamacallit BS theories.

No magic bullets or solutions for stopping a man with one round. I have a personal observation/theory that I have adopted over time as a serviceman and Deputy Sheriff that if you never experienced trama to your body as a child, ie contact sports, school yard fist fights, hard physical labor ect ect then ones ability to handle shock and trama via a gun shot wound was very weak.

On the other hand if you were exposed to shock and trama normally with sports and or fights and hard work you "couldn't" be taken down with a 12 gauge at 20 paces with one shot assuring you couldn't shoot back at me or mine.

I have carried a lot of different rigs over the years and seem to gravitate to the 1911A1 , AK 47 and M1A for serious defense against human species of agressors. I am also starting to take a shine to the handguns that use the 357SIG caliber also...... awesome caliber for those that need a high capacity or compact sidearm in a hard hitting caliber.

That's my morning rant ......Stay Safe !!

[Shooter 2.5]

"Who was it that said "only accurate guns are interesting"? "

Colonel Townsend Whelen

I don't have much to add to this thread. I only know that hits count and that's one of the reasons we retired the M-14. The draftees didn't know how to shoot full sized rounds. Personally, I have no idea why the troops can't have two choices based on the terrain. If we go to the jungles with no support, then the M-16 should be issued to all troops. If the U.S. is fighting in open terrain and there's a deuce and a half loaded with ammo behind the troops, it shouldn't be the M-16. I don't know what should replace it.

I'm partial to an AR-10 chambered to .243.

[Cogadh na Sith]

On the other hand if you were exposed to shock and trama normally with sports and or fights and hard work you "couldn't" be taken down with a 12 gauge at 20 paces with one shot assuring you couldn't shoot back at me or mine.

It's an interesting point...

How many times have you read about a crook shot 3 or 4 times returns fire, drives off and is arrested after a high-speed chase and expected to recover in the hospital--it happens very frequently...

VS. the all-too-common story of the cop shot through the leg with a .32 and is survived by 4 kids and a wife....

[AAABEST]

I have carried a lot of different rigs over the years and seem to gravitate to the 1911A1 , AK 47

Heretic! Ain't no way you'd rather carry a 47 than a 16, I know you better than that.

[AAABEST]

Though the AK functions well, I have seen few that shoot as accurate as a 16.

You're correct. You never will see it either, simple physics won't allow it.

[harpseal]

I pretty much agree with your personal choices but I for one do like the 5.56 X 45 mm round. I agree in an anti-terrorist action hollowpoints should be used and the only thing stopping their use is policy. Given the ballistics of the .357 Sig it seems an awesome choice for carry even though I do not think I want to trade in my .45acp for one. Call me old fashioned overly sentimental whatever, the .45acp has an attachment for me for personal self defense carry.

As to GI's complaining about anything and everything That is a permanent truth. That does not mean that they should not be carrying the best available equipment for the task at hand. A long time ago a wise person stated the truth weapons and tactics are deterined by terrain and mission. A large percentage of the gripes are caused by going with what they have available rather than adapting to the terrain and mission.

Given all the above I would still be more comfortable if the troops were armed with sidearms in .45acp, 40 S&W, 10mm, or .357 sig.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

[El Gato]

The old 5.56 round did yaw in flesh. However they made the new round heavier, for better penetration of Russian/Soviet body armor They may have overdone the stability. The 7.62X39 from the AK-47 and the newer 5.45X39 Russian round also yaw in flesh.

The tendency of the newer/heavier round to overpenetrate has long been reported in the "gun press"

[El Gato]

Hollow points are not allowed in "civilized" warfare. They are however fine for police and civilian use within the U.S.. This is not true in all jurisdictions however. If you ever have to shoot someone, you'd better be using something similar to what the local police, sherrif or state police use, otherwise the shootee's lawyer will regal the jury with tales of extra deadly ammunition, that you were "just waiting" to shoot their client with. In some jurisdictions you might be better off with round nose lead, unjacketed. This especially true if you use one of the larger calibers, like .44 or .45.

[asformeandformyhouse]

I'm partial to an AR-10 chambered to .243.

A very under-appreciated round.