Soldiers Report Gun Glitches

Defense Week | September 3, 2002 | By Nathan Hodge

[SLB]

FYI - Sounds like the introduction of the M16 all over again. Overpenetration? I never really undstood what I was hearing in the 1960's about the 5.56 mm round tumbling when it hit a human. Now, it sounds like instead of tumbling the round just slips right on through. Maybe we need to look at something like a good old silvertip or just a plain jane hollow point. I guess that would violate all the rules of war, but how many rules were followed on Sept 11th?

[LibKill]

Bring back the M-14 and the M1911A1.

[NMC EXP]

The M855 5.56 round is heavier than the original 5.56 ball and has a steel rather than lead core.

I recall an article several years ago in which some NATO countries were concerned by the types of wounds you described (bullet tumble and break-up). THe Swiss I believe developed the M855 to counteract that tendency and it was adopted as standard.

I'll stick with my M1A and 168 grain Sierra BTHPs.

Regards

J.R.

[nevergore]

SpecWar guy's still carry them....especially the .45, most dumped the Berretta 9mm....
NeverGore

[harpseal]

From my reading the problem of overpenetration mostly seems a r4esult of the 1 in 9 twist rate for the newer ammunition. The 1 in 9 as opposed to the 1 in 12 or 14 I do not remember the exact ratio means the bullet is inherently more stable and less likely to upset on strikeing a colloidal type mass (flesh). I agree that hollowpoints would be in order for the 5.56 X 45 mm rounds.

Now when it comes to the M9 I for one do not think that a 9mm round nose is going to do the job for our troops. They either need silver tips or they need a .45acp. The best choice would be silver tip in .45acp. It was a war against moselm insurgents in the Phillipines that led to the adoption of the .45 acp in the first place.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

[Centurion2000]

Bring back the .308 ... good enough for large deer .. it will drop a human in one shot.

[RogueIsland]

Roughly the same proportion of soldiers reported rust and corrosion problems in the M9 Pistol barrel.

I'm not sure what anyone can do about this. Barrel steel corrodes, even stainless. Chrome lining helps, but no barrel that I know of is corrosion proof, especially in field conditions.

According to Carpenter's survey, the majority of the stoppages were caused by aging magazines. Some magazines had worn lips and feeders; sand would seep in, and as rounds stacked in the magazine start to get flattened out, they would begin to bind up.

Worn, dirty or damaged mags will often be the culprit in reliability problems. Anyone whose had any experience with current-production 1911s, for instance, knows that the first place to look when dealing with a finicky specimen is the mags (and there are a lot of finicky specimens), and I suspect that the problem can be worse on a double-stack like the Beretta.

[Pern]

Bring back the M-14 and the M1911A1.

I agree, I carried an M-14 and a .45 the few times I was in the desert during DS/DS (never had to fire them in anger, thank God). I wouldn't trade them for those pea shooters our guys have to carry around now. My dad was a Recon Marine in Vietnam, and that's what he used. He said the M-16 round was 'a .22 on steroids'.

[R. Scott]

“Maybe we need to look at something like a good old silvertip or just a plain jane hollow point. I guess that would violate all the rules of war, but how many rules were followed on Sept 11th?”

It would be a major violation, but of course – using the 50 cal. against troops is a violation too.
In Viet Nam we would (when time permitted) run a file over the tips of the rifle rounds – in effect making illegal hollow points. Much better knock down power.

[SevenDaysInMay]

RE: 5.56x45 - Rifling started at 1:14 and went to 1:7 as the bullet evolved to the M855. The problem which remains is that it often makes for little hydrostatic shock, unless the bullet tumbles, expands, or hits the goods. (What lessons from the last 100 years?) Were we to use an expanding bullet, aka DumDum from the Brits, cries of war crimes would become even louder.

A VLD 6mm or 6.5mm bullet in an otherwise unmodified .22-250 case at about 1:8 twist would make an efficient and effective uniform replacement for both .223 M16/M4 and .308 SAW, very well mannered with sufficient punch to 1,000 meters.

If the (PC) US brass (Clintonized) intends to reprise the ~50,000 rounds per casualty inflicted as in Nam, we would do better to arm ourselves and get ready to battle terrorists in our own neighborhoods.

[R. Scott]

"We tell guys, `Clean your weapons,'" Carpenter said, adding: "But sometimes, you don't have all the time it takes to do that."

This brings to mind a TI inspection we had once in Viet Nam.
We were informed of it while returning from a mission, and had one day to prepare. We passed with flying colors until the inspection team (from Ft. Eustis, VA – never been incountry) was about to leave the boat. One member realized the 50s weren’t inspected. We removed the canvas covers and he placed his white gloved hand on the barrel – it came away covered in grease.
“This is outrageous! Look at the book! You only use a very light coating of oil!” We didn’t try to explain, but removed the barrel and cleaned it “properly”. We applied a light coat of gun oil and received an on the spot correction. The inspector then watched as the barrel rusted before his eyes. High humidity, high temperature and salt air tend to do that to gun barrels. He promised to have the book changed for tropical conditions.

[Constitutional Patriot]

M1A1/M14 and any traditional .45 will always do the trick.

I often hear the argument that our guys can carry more .223 b/c it is lighter. I can see their point, but what never seems to occur to them is that it takes an average (according to reports coming out of Afghanistan) 4+ rounds to stop a person. I'm pretty sure that one .308 to the center of mass will stop any man cold in his tracks.

The .308 is heavier than the .223, but you wouldn't need to carry as much of it.

[17th Miss Regt]

It was a war against moselm insurgents in the Phillipines that led to the adoption of the .45 acp in the first place.

And as you may recall, it was designed to be used against very, very stoned warriors - too stoned to recognized when they had been seriously wounded by a .38 round. I wonder if any of the al Queda folks were in that condition?

[Valin]

BUMP

[Leisler]

In the late 7o's( O God!) I went through basic, they said nothing about the M-16 magazine, other than clean it. Ditto in the 82nd. When I went to group, they issued me my own personal magazines. Some near new, some not. We went to the range and if a magazine were tricky the weapons guys would look it over. If it kept it up, they destroyed it right then and there on the range and gave me a new one. In the 82nd, I would of been told to turn it back in (so that it could be issued to another) The penny wise idiocy of the Army drove me up the wall.

[American Soldier]

Yes...Check the other articles about the stuff they've found in their mouths... They chew/suck on some kind of strong stimulant. Serves as a craziness multiplier...

[Leisler]

S.L. Marshall did a post WWII study of European combat infantry. Quarter of a million of rounds for each enemy casualty.

[Vic3O3]

Yeah, I'd support rearming the troops with the M14. Esp when you look at the fact that the troops are now starting to use special BlackHills ammo (80gr bullet) in the 5.56 cartridges...Sorta negates the argument of being able to carry so much 'more' .223 ammo...