The Bible vs. The Quran

But first, is there anything you want to retract?

No. I still find your tone pompous and pedantic and as a former prof I'm an expert on pompous and pedantic.

Your phrase "original language to English in one step" makes the process quite seamless between Moses and the King James committee. The books of the Torah were not chosen until after the destruction of the Temple and in the centuries since they were written they had been rewritten, summarized, redacted and glossed many times. Scholars have identified the various authors (P,J,D, etc.)and their contributions. All of this was in Hebrew but the Hebrew changed over the centuries quite as much as our English varies from Chaucer's. (Would you consider a modern version of Chaucer a translation?)

I don't know which English translation you had in mind but many are based on earlier translations with reference to the originals. King James, for example, is heavily indebted to Tyndall. The magnificent language is unmistakable (according to Romer). The frontispiece of the Geneva Bible says:

THE NEWE TESTAMENT OF OVR LORD JESVS CHRIST***Conferred diligently vvith the Greke, and beft approued tranflacions in diuers languages.

That's simply a statement coming from somebody who has not expended the energy to keep up with what's happening in the field

Hoffmeier is a leading scholar in the field and an effective critic of the minimalist position. The subtitle of his book is "The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition". I suppose he could have missed those theories about the pyramids being built by little green men.

Sounds like just another PHD who hasn't kept up. Immanuel Velikovsky is viewed as a normal part of the academic landscape in Europe, particularly in the area of chronological revision, in which the most major names appear to be Hiensohn and Sweeney. In particular, German and other European archaeologists who originally had problems with Heinsohn's reconstructions had a clear shot at Heinsohn at Tel Munbaqa, and the layers of stratigraphy which Heinsohn claimed they would not find are still missing. Nobody over there is laughing or talking about "little green men".

...I'm an expert on pompous and pedantic.

Which is one of the reasons I first responded as I did, but I truly tried to use humor. Sure I could have taken the time to write in a more humble manner. Your treatment of other posters was fresh in my mind; and what you put out can sometimes come back to bite you. Seriously, you only have yourself to blame here by starting out the way you did.

I should have figured you as someone who buys into the Documentary Hypothesis, which only applies to the Pentateuch, or the first five books of the Bible. As a reminder, we're not just talking about the Pentateuch so I find your bringing this up as some form of a dodge. That could be chalked up to self preservation and understandable. Check out something other than 19th century documentation! 20th century scholarship has demolished any argument supporting the DH.

The changing names for God in the Pentateuch was the departing point for the DH. Please do not even bother denying this. It's true and supported by liberal author Speiser who buys the theory of the DH. In the Anchor Bible's Genesis in the introduction page XXII he writes:

A significant milestone in the literary criticism of Genesis was the observation published in 1753 by the French physician Jean Astruc that, when referring to the Deity, some narratives in this book use the personal name Yahweh ("Jehovah"), while other and apparently parallel accounts employ Elohim, the generic Hebrew term for "divine being." It would thus seem to follow, Astruc argued, that Genesis was made up of two originally independent sources. As matters turned out, the criterion which Astruc introduced was useful principally as a point of departure.

And this "point of departure" is based on "misinterpretation, mistranslation and lack of attention to extrabiblical sources," as found in another book on the subject, Rethinking Genesis by Garrett.

Also, 20th century scholars now know that in ancient texts the use of repetition, parallel accounts (doublets) and redundancy present the strongest case a single document is present.

Other books I own and have read on this topic are:

Genesis 1-11, Westerman
The Pentateuch, Blenkinsopp
Documentary Hypothesis, Cassuto
Before Abraham Was, Kikawada & Quinn

I've studied this topic intensely and have argued against "net professors" in USENET many times on this very topic. It's a lost cause due to 20th century research.

I'm not going to debate the ancient fallacies of the Documentary Hypothesis. As stated earlier I find a jump to this topic a dodge. The real issue here is your calling my post nonsense when every single piece of evidence we have supports my position. Unless of course you have manuscripts or pictures of manuscripts, or pieces of either written in another language and dated before the documents we have written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Since such documents don't exist my point stands.

The evidence in support of my position is overwhelming. Calling my position nonsense is nonsense itself and is evident to all. Your retraction is overdue. I can understand pride getting in the way. Still, show some character, please, and I'll try to write in a different tone.

From where i sit..Velikovsky was a genius....
His concepts of "Super comets" ..comets of Long and short duration are now proven true.
The moons of Jupiter and Saturn are "Shot gunned" on one side by impactors....the 3 impactors which hit Mars and burst her planetary crust,leaving an exit wound equitorial,that makes Grand Canyon look like a surface scratch.
Mars looks like a murder victim.

The debate now is when this all occured.
Time windows within 10,000 -8,000 yrs ago might not be "Heretic" after all.
Victor Clube and Napier forward the theme that impactors and "Super Tunguska" events have been the prime mover in shaping history on this planet.
Velikovsky links the fall of civilizations..the mass migrations of man..to these events.
Intererstingly...if one really peels back the Hebrew Prophecies of the Old Testament..one finds Hebrew/Kabbalistic/astronomical encoding forwarded...with future celestial allignment notes..almost a co-ordinate locate for a time sequence in the future..when "Heavenly" events will reshape this world again.
Nostradamus - a Jew and a Kabbalist...encodes a future war with world wide scale..that lasts 27 years...the war of "Mabus".
Whats interesting..is the continual reference to comets and global drought...mass migration..and the unhinging of the worlds social/economic reality.
Sounds very similar to the Book of Revelations.
I guess its up to man to ponder the why and werefore to all of this...and to pause and think,
Why were are being given this info in advance.

This will come hard for some....and scoffing will ensue.
Mohammeds rise to social/political power was not independent..but was "Brought along"..with assistance by an entity that had a long history of manipulating mankind.
Its earlier form ruled far and wide..and understood power.
In time..it evolved..or adapted[Like the Borg]..and discovered that motivational thinking manipulation on a large scale..could effect the changes required..better than moving huge armies to engage objectives for desired outcomes.
Deep in the vaults of a few nations is the "Truth"....that one entity is the parent of the other.
The world would become "Unhinged"..if the truth got out.

This one is easy to discover...ask yourself this.
Who appeared in North Africa and the Gulf region in that time period.
Whose thinking was knew..
Who had Tempral power to pull this "Fabrication" off..to effect a large body of uneducated "Pagans".
Its by no accident that Islam paralells Christianity and Judaism..no accident at all.

In time..the child became self aware of its power..and rebelled against its parent.
Only deals cut involving financial payoff and land concession[Forfeiture of countries..for stalemate reality] kept the juggernaut from rolling over everything.
The present trouble of our time..is but another repeat dynamic of what was created so long ago.
Mans will[thinking], can generate many woundrous things...it can also create horrors that cannot be undone.

"That will certainly surprise the 13,000,000 (more or less) Jews in the world. I expect they'll shut down Israel when they hear."

Their response is absolutely irrelevant. Truth does not, never had, and never will depend upon any number of people.
Truth is absolute. Not relative.

we're not just talking about the Pentateuch so I find your bringing this up as some form of a dodge.

The last time I looked the Pentateuch was considered part of the Bible and a major part of what this thread has been devoted to. That it is not all of the Bible is why I included the quote from the Geneva Bible New Testament. Did you miss that?

By the way, I'd really appreciate it if you would keep to the subject and leave my nasty little motivations out of it.

The changing names for God in the Pentateuch was the departing point for the DH. Please do not even bother denying this. It's true and supported by liberal author Speiser who buys the theory of the DH

Why on earth would I deny it? That is a very old ploy. That work was indeed done in the 19th (and even 18th ) Century but the work continues. Finkelstein and Silberman (citation and link above) is a 2001 book and a glance through their biblio shows very little prior to 1965. If any of your books disagree with these authors, toss them. (Just kidding).

The evidence in support of my position is overwhelming. Calling my position nonsense is nonsense itself and is evident to all. Your retraction is overdue. I can understand pride getting in the way. Still, show some character, please, and I'll try to write in a different tone.

Well, let's see. You've declared yourself the overwhelming winner, evident to all (who "all" is is a mystery since I think everyone dropped out of this argument long ago), and stated that a lack of character was all that was keeping me from offering a humble retraction. I think I'll join the rest and leave.

Truth is absolute. Not relative

And your absolute truth is the only absolute truth. Be very careful what you read.

"And your absolute truth is the only absolute truth. Be very careful what you read."

It isn't "my" absolute truth. Absolute truth is not in the possession of any single individual. Otherwise, it wouldn't be "absolute", would it?

Only by examining extant documents can we ascertain truth.
Some, like the Koran and the book of Mormon, are obviously works of fiction. And not very good works of fiction at that.

But we could never determine such works as these to be false were we to not read them.

I would caution people to read what they read with a degree of common sense. I would caution people to read a balanced diet of material, realizing there is a very distinct difference between truth and falsehood.

But unless we know the tactics of the enemy (Satan), we'll never be able to defend against the enemy.

Matt 10:16: Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Don't you find it strange that the pure Word of God requires so much explaining and adjusting of dates?

No, I don't. YOU are the one who needs all the explanation.God has determined that the bible will always be nonsense to some people. They are not chosen to see . Maybe you are one of them. We believe because God gave us the faith. God chose us. We didn't choose him on our own.God has given us the faith. "Blessed are those who believe but have never seen".Since you don't believe, then all I can say is,good luck.

It seems more plausible that they were trying to wipe out his memory.

Obviously no,you don't have to have a license to preach. No one yet, has asked for your license,now have they?

The last time I looked the Pentateuch was considered part of the Bible

Being that the Bible contains 66 books, the Pentateuch is a small (13%) part. In post 162 you attempted to bring the Documentary Hypothesis into the discussion as if the antiquated scholarship behind the DH might somehow affect the entire Bible. That's a dodge and I'm going to point out your "nasty little motivations" (your words) whenever you try to pass one off as legitimate.

Why on earth would I deny it?

Thanks for asking - I'll tell you why. Once DH proponents realize the evidence behind the "point of departure" for the DH rests on a discredited idea, they're quick to distance themselves from the idea. Yet when I mention it first DH proponents have no where to run, like you don't.

Again, this "point of departure" is based on "misinterpretation, mistranslation and lack of attention to extrabiblical sources." A biased scholar will always look the other way when overwhelming evidence exists that discredits their pet theory.

Yet this is all besides the point. Even if we grant you some affirmative action in the way of accepting the discreted DH theory, that gives you nothing. The language is still Hebrew, and then for only 13% of the Bible. The rest of the Bible is written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. You gain nothing by throwing this dodge into the mix.

Do you have any manuscripts, copies of manuscripts, photos of manuscripts, photos of individual paypyr, anything, that suggests a language other than Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek that predates any manuscript in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek? No, you don't, because they don't exist.

Therefore, my statement that the Bible versions we have today are the result of one translation, from the original language to English stands. You have no argument other than wishful thinking that fits your agenda.

I think I'll join the rest and leave.

Reminds me of the adage: "you can dish it out but you can't take it".

Seriously, you should try reading some critical analysis of the DH instead of only those that support your current thoughts. The idea that the changing names for God (the point of departure) has been discredited give us something to consider; what happens when the same verse has two different names for God? Did two sources come together and create the one verse? Kinda throws a wrench into it, doesn't it? As Cassuto (a DH proponent) says, different names bring out different aspects of the character of God. Or better, Elohim is what God is and Yahweh is who He is. Perhaps the names Elohim and Yahweh have semantic overlap?

Also, since ancient writers use repetition, parallel accounts (doublets) and redundancy as a common literary practice, yet another major DH pillar topples.

Some scholars insist J knew their God as Yahweh, but E & P did not. Yet the verse in question, Gen 4:26 has nothing to do with when Yahwism began. Even Westermann (another DH proponent) says this idea has been misunderstood. 20th century research and finds completely devastate the DH.

I was lost but now I am found.

If you think Islam is crap then I want you to tell me why it is the fastest growing religion in the world? The growth of Islam has even increased post 9/11. So if the leader of Islam (The Holy Prophet) was a murderer and paedophile as you clearly state, why is it that so many people all over the world, but especially in western countries, and suprisingly being led in the US, are converting to a religion conveyed by such a person. If you bothered to actually find out who the Holy Prophet really was then you would find the perfect human being, a paradigm to mankind. You can't even compare an altered book as the Bible is, with the beautiful word of God, as the Quran is. And if you believe that the Quran is filled with grammatical mistakes, then I challenge you or anyone else to manufacture even a sentence that can be intellectually compared to any sentences or parables of the Quran. God has put this challenge to man, not me. Intellectually and logically Islam dominates over all, which are two aspects you seem not to have.

I'm a mathematician/physicist that has just made recent crucial discoveries correlating the "Golden Ratio" or Fi-(1.618033989)to religious texts, along with other natural (scientifically proven) FACTS in nature and the universe.
Observe especially: Pythagoras, DaVinci, Newton, (& Einstein to a degree).
All of these great scientists and artists have PROVEN the undeniable CODE that exists in our universe.
Including everything within. A simple numbered sequence that spirals us into "Chaos". But ... even in the complex chaotic universe there seems to be "Order". There seems to be "Beauty". As well as many other interesting virtues that mathematics cannot explain.

This led me to investigate further into religious explanations from all denominations. Including occults & mysticism.

To this day I am still investigating within a "Pure" objective state.
Conciously aware of my scientific and logical duties required to ommit or add a finding or discovery.

My discoveries WILL be revealed to you all very soon.
But until then, here is a summary of what an everyday human being with no intent on religious biasness has found.

I INVESTIGATED AND FOUND ...

One Eye !
I have named this mathematical marvel "1i".
It's similar to the "Ulluminati" on the American Dollar bill (but not them).
But with many more wonders inside the "pupil".
In the pupil I have seen many creatures pop out (maybe sub-conciously). But they ARE there if one looks correctly.
Creatures such as:
An ANT, SPIDER, CRUSTACEAN (crab), BEE and 2 Butterflies !

How? I can't tell you yet.
But I can assure you it is purely mathematical
AND RELATED TO TRIANGLES AND PYRAMIDS AND PI.

What is it?
I can't tell you yet but all the indicators are pointing to something truly unbelievable...
The True Name Of Our Lord!
The name?
I can't tell you for I would spoil the fun of human discovery and the ultimate reason why we're here.
But when you see this wierd yet wonderfull picture, you will make your own mind up.

Untill then,

CHRISTIANS !!!!

YOU HAVE A GROSS SYNTAX ERROR IN YOUR BOOK *******

DO YOUR SUMS AND FIND THE TRUTH UNBLINDED AND NOT RESORT TO WHAT IS JUST WRITTEN OR SAID IN YOUR SO-CALLED BOOK: THE "BIBLE".

YOU HAVE BEEN MISGUIDED AND WOE TO YOU FOR RECITING THAT WHICH YOU THINK YOU KNOW AS WELL AS WHAT YOU DON'T.

SOME OF YOU I 'KNOW' ARE PART OF THE 'NEW AGE' REFORMISTS.
AND I AM AWARE OF THE FACTS FOUND BUT CONCEILED BY YOUR GROUPS.
I AM AWARE AND IN PREPARATION NOW.
YOU WILL NOT SUCCEED AND ALL OF HUMANITY WILL SEE THE TRUTH FOR THEMSLEVES.

I WILL SHOW YOU HOW SOON.

UNTILL THEN... HAVE A NICE LIFE JOURNEY HUMANS!