Vatican publishes overview of church teaching on environment

You suggested that the Church should be allied with wealth-increasing ideologies, seeming to imply that this was a worthy goal in itself.

Not allied with them, Romulus. I just want the European clerics who form these Vatican statements to stop trashing the economic model that pumps billions into hellholes like Africa and keeps entire countries from collapsing financially.

I would agree.

As regards the protection of the environment, the complex and widely diverse question of population growth is one fact among several to be taken into consideration.

Population growth. A term frequently associated with birth control and abortion. An interesting thing coming from a Vatican book.

The problem isn't that there are too many people, but that these people don't have enough to eat or a decent place to live. These are not problems of population as such; after all, human beings are the only engines of wealth production. Imbalances commonly represented as population problems could more honestly be described as problems of war or political freedom, or private property. It's more accurate to say that the problem is with powerful persons, governments, or idelogies, which have not developed in ways conducive to wealth formation, and have failed to keep up with rudimentary advances in public health that have done so much to retard mortality. BTW, it helps to distinguish between simple poverty (the state of being poor) and abject poverty (the state of being helpless, hopeless, and dependent). The consumerist economy and socialist welfare states have combined to promote the myth that poverty is an objective evil that must be destroyed. This is an over-simplification of course, put forth to serve the ambitions of the powerful who hope to prosper by presenting themselves as saviors of the poor.

<> You make some great points. They are what I thought werre subsumed in the "population problem" noted. I think it better it be spelled out as you did. I love the mention of private property. We Catholics are accused of being socialists, yet private property is a bedrock principle of Social Doctrine. How could it be otherwise? "Thou shalt not steal." is predicated upon Private Property. Private Property rights, solidarity, and subsidiarity are three principles upon which a just social system ought to be constructed. We have acheived that in this country. We haven't acheived a just system. Capitalism gave rise to many wonderful achievements and it also created Marxism as a reaction.

My Pastor once said that when Jesus said "The poor you will always have with you," He was really speaking about sin and concupisence and how that would combine so those to whom much was given would not share justly with the poor and that is why the poor would always be with us.

The poor all over the world pray daily for relief. When we, wealthy individuals and counties, provide alms and charity in amounts suficient to alleviate their abject poverty, we are the answer to their prayer. God sends us, and if we do not respond, on an oindividual and a collective basis, we shall have that as part of our judgement. The poor will receive their bounty in Heaven, but, woe betide that wealthy individual and nation that lords it over the poor and poor countries and sniffs about free markets and free trade.

Most people don't know they're "poor" until someone points it out. Once, tribes were herding or farming tribes and traded with each other, and had what they needed...until someone whispered in their ear that someone had more...and the serpent is still at work. Rwanda comes to mind. The Portugese favored and educated one of two tribes that had coexisted peacefully for years....inciting deadly jealousy and mass murder.

Jesus had a great deal of respect for private property rights. Jesus told the parable of the vineyard...the workers who volunteered worked a short time or all day and were paid the same....and that was alright, it was up to the owner who owned the field. Lydia, the wealthy seller of purple was faithful as was the wealthy centurion who understood Jesus's authority from his own leadership experience and had faith enough to believe Jesus could heal his beloved servant from afar....to Zachias, the "slum lord" that Jesus favored with a visit and personal acknowledgement....after Zachias promised to make up for cheating his tenants. Then there was Mary and the expensive ointment she used to wipe the feet of Jesus....though it could have been sold to feed the poor.

Being compassionate and helping the poor is not socialism....socialism makes everyone suffer equally. Instead of lifting up and loving neighbors, socialism thrives on envy and guilt, it kills the soul. Man does not live by bread alone...

you make some good points. The Catholic Church rests its social doctrine upon natural law,divine revelation and common sense. Private property rights (although not absolute) solidarity (we are each others brothers and sisters) subsidiarity ( subsidiarity, as first stated by Pope Pius XI in Quadragesimo Anno,2 and clarified by Pope John Paul II in Centesimus Annus, maintains that a society flourishes best when its citizens recognize that different social organizations have different tasks. "A community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.").

Rerum Novarum (on capital and labor)is the first modern statement of Social Doctrine. This great Encyclical has nothing in it any Christian can object to. It recognises and supports property rights, repeatedly condemns socialism, notes that individuals and families predate societies, that govt has no businees interferring in family life, that redistribution is wrong, that excessive taxation is wrong, that more men should become property owners,that working men's associations must first focus on religion, etc etc. Too many accept the lie the Church promotes Socialism because too few read the actual documents.

Take the time to read Rerum Novarum - for starters.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum_en.html

Link to Rerum Novarum

Does the utopian Marxism in this book reflect the author, the publisher or the entire Corporation ?

This treatise is founded on the belief that G-d does not exist and this Corporation is in charge

<> Do you want to take back that outrageous post? Failing that, tell us where marx refers to God and His creation, God revealing himself to his creation? In what way doies this piece have anything to do with Marx?

I do not understand how it is you missed mention of God in this article nor do I understand how it is you think the Catholic Church - which you denigrate as a corporation - believes God does not exist.

You should reconsider posting your antiCatholic attacks.

XS>Does the utopian Marxism in this book reflect the author, the publisher or the entire Corporation ?

XS>This treatise is founded on the belief that G-d does not exist and this Corporation is in charge

Cg><> Do you want to take back that outrageous post? Failing that, tell us where marx refers to God and His creation, God revealing himself to his creation? In what way doies(sic) this piece have anything to do with Marx?

Cg>I do not understand how it is you missed mention of God in this article nor do I understand how it is you think the Catholic Church - which you denigrate as a corporation - believes God does not exist.

Cg>You should reconsider posting your antiCatholic attacks.
48 posted on 8/27/02 6:39 AM Mountain by Catholicguy

The Evil One always wraps his lies in a veneer of truth.

Ep. 1:17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the
glorious Father, may give you the Spirit [Or a spirit] of
wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

chuck <truth@Y'shuaHaMashiach>

The Evil One always wraps his lies in a veneer of truth.

<> I gave you the opportunity to either retract your outrageous accusations or to back them up with citations. Instead of doing either of those things, you continue your antiCatholic bigotry with the statement about the evil one...

Everyone can see who is and isn't acting like the Christian they profess to be

XS>The Evil One always wraps his lies in a veneer of truth.

Cg><> I gave you the opportunity to either retract your outrageous accusations or to back them up with citations. Instead of doing either of those things, you continue your antiCatholic bigotry with the statement about the evil one...

Cg>Everyone can see who is and isn't acting like the Christian they profess to be

50 posted on 8/27/02 1:50 PM Mountain by Catholicguy

Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: “`Love the Lord your God with all your heart
and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ [Deut. 6:5]
Matthew 22:38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like it: `Love your neighbour as yourself.’[Lev. 19:18]

Clearly I have not made myself understood.

I will pray for guidance from the Ru'akh haKodesh.

chuck <truth@Y'shuaHaMashiach>

Christian morality, when adequately and completely practiced, leads of itself to temporal prosperity, for it merits the blessing of that God who is the source of all blessings; it powerfully restrains the greed of possession and the thirst for pleasure-twin plagues, which too often make a man who is void of self-restraint miserable in the midst of abundance;(23) it makes men supply for the lack of means through economy, teaching them to be content with frugal living, and further, keeping them out of the reach of those vices which devour not small incomes merely, but large fortunes, and dissipate many a goodly inheritance.

Thank you for this link, Catholicguy...for its welcome, plainspoken common sense. Bookmarked. (^: