[B4Ranch]

Check the site on #12 and see if this guy is just pushing the numbers. I'm a pro 2nd Amendment as anyone you'll ever find but I wonder which story is the truth.

[Destructor]

Hard to say Rancher! The government officials of Australia have engaged in their share of "book cooking," so who knows? Personally, I'm inclined to believe that Gun Control is not an effective crime fighting tactic. In fact, crime usually rises, once criminals no longer have to worry about victims being able to defend themselves!

In my opinion, that just seems like common sense. I understand that you don't want our side perpetuating erroneous information, because that undermines our credibility. However, I wouldn't take the other side's bilge as gospel, either!

[Byron_the_Aussie]

....it has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars....

The figures sound correct but the gun buyback was in 1997. Note that the 'personal firearms' were semi-auto rifles and shotguns, plus pump action shotguns. The subsequent jump in crime figures also sound correct although they were released last year, meaning the buyback and crime stats figures have been spliced together. But they still sound accurate. Matter of fact the crime stats are actually more damning than these because gun-related crimes such as home invasion (which have increased dramatically since the gun laws) are often not reported due to the victims' fear of payback. Regards, By.

[Timesink]

Assuming the date on Officer Chenel's letter is correct (July 15, 2001), then the response by Ms. Mouzos (who, we should keep in mind, is under heavy pressure as an Australian Government employee to make damned sure those numbers prove the politicians were right) is largely false, and in fact is using the exact tactics that Mr. Break the Chain is accusing Chenel of using: she's a crafty wordsmith who manipulated the statistics to make precisely the point she wanted to.

How so? Easy: Chenel's letter discusses figures comparing July 2000 to July 2001. Only Mouzos's Claim Two even has any 2000 statistics included, much less 2001 stats, and without 2001 stats, it tells us nothing as to whether or not there was a drastic increase of armed robbery with firearms between 2000 and 2001.

Advantage Chenel, unless someone can actually come up with some true 2000-2001 comparisons, and preferably 2001-2002 comparisons as well.