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VAN DAM MURDER VERDICT [VERDICT IN: GUILTY!]
ABC radio

Posted on 08/21/2002 10:03:52 AM PDT by wallcrawlr

I just heard this at noon.


TOPICS: Breaking News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: horndog; kidnapping; molestation; vandam; westerfield; westerfieldrailroad
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To: Valpal1
Probably won't have access to any children ever again though.

ahhh, but the killer will, and so will your Damon (if those aren't mutually exclusive people). Bet you can celebrate that!

681 posted on 08/21/2002 4:42:18 PM PDT by fnord
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To: nycgal
"I've always wondered why jurors weren't allowed to read the transcripts and had to sit through readbacks instead."

The reason that I have been given is that the transcripts do nothing to show the demeanor/intonation of the witness and other factors surrounding the testimony. Judges don't want juries obsessing over written material; they want all the circumstances surrounding testimony and all the other evidence considered as well.

Another reason is historical; transcripts didn't used to be ready by the time the jury started deliberations. That's not as true today with computerized transcription which tends to be done in the evening following testimony each day. Even computerized transciption needs to be analyzed and corrected by the court reporter, however. As with computer translations from foreign languages, not all the words come out right straight from the computer. The court reporter has to read through and make corrections.

I had lunch with a judge once and asked him all about this, and this is what he told me.

Actually, I think juries ought to get a transcript to take into the jury room.

682 posted on 08/21/2002 4:42:35 PM PDT by Irene Adler
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To: connectthedots
I think the death penalty is the only meaningful option in many cases. I think if we had a population more like the one this nation started with, intellectually, we would have better juries, and trials would be more just. Now we have people getting off when there is no resonable doubt they're guilty, and people being hanged when there is a mountain of reasonable doubt. Race problems, the emotional mind God gave women (thy didn't use to be on juries), and a marked increase in sheer ignorance from several causes has made the American judicial system all but arbitrary.
683 posted on 08/21/2002 4:42:58 PM PDT by agrandis
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To: Valpal1
He'll have a comfy 15 years on death row

I'll bet the parents are hoping for life. Life fades away quicker, you know. You don't have all those pesky activists continuing to search for the truth.

I bet Ott and Keyser are hoping for the same ...

684 posted on 08/21/2002 4:43:45 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: agrandis
What do you think of all the reporters' comments about bug evidence being "junk science?" As if any of them ever took a science class! I found the bug evidence quite straight forward and easy to understand. How accurate would you say it is and how much coud the body have been affected by variables in the environment?
685 posted on 08/21/2002 4:46:35 PM PDT by HoneyBoo
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To: agrandis
What do you think of all the reporters' comments about bug evidence being "junk science?" As if any of them ever took a science class! I found the bug evidence quite straight forward and easy to understand. How accurate would you say it is and how much coud the body have been affected by variables in the environment?
686 posted on 08/21/2002 4:47:22 PM PDT by HoneyBoo
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To: f.Christian
Do you mean the larvae crawled from one spot to another, or that adult flies were carrying them from the garbage to the sink?

Migration of larvae IS a whole area of concern in forensic entomology. Were there recently dead animals near the body when it was found? Even then, I don't think they are likely to migrate before completing their life cycle in their original food source. At any rate, the entomologists involved knew exactly what species they were dealing with, and the dissenting entomologist never brought up any possible migration of larvae that I know of. Or did he?

687 posted on 08/21/2002 4:48:43 PM PDT by agrandis
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To: Irene Adler
The reason that I have been given is that the transcripts do nothing to show the demeanor/intonation of the witness and other factors surrounding the testimony.

Neither do readbacks. I've been on a jury and have had testimony read back to us. The court reporter read it in a flat, monotone voice, never duplicating the tone or demeanor of the witness. I'm sure the court reporter didn't emulate Denise Kamal's body language duting readback :-)

Actually, I think juries ought to get a transcript to take into the jury room

I totally agree with you.

688 posted on 08/21/2002 4:50:22 PM PDT by nycgal
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To: truth_seeker; ~Kim4VRWC's~
The SaveDave thread on FR will now be sure to last for years, pending appeal, of course.

I was thinking all along that that would be the ONE downside to a conviction. Have you checked out the Smokey Backroom? OMG, it's a Chamber of Horrors over there! Nasty pictures, nasty tempers, nasty words, etc. They hate Kim's guts over there. They make the SoreLoserman crowd look positively calm and rational by comparison!! Have they set up a SaveDave Appeals Fund yet?

689 posted on 08/21/2002 4:52:47 PM PDT by wimpycat
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To: wimpycat
Not yet, but they haven't even got past the dreaded #666 post over there yet. Give 'em time.
690 posted on 08/21/2002 4:58:13 PM PDT by Valpal1
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To: Steve0113
Take the bug evidence. Four -- count 'em -- FOUR experts testified that her body wasn't where it was found until two weeks after Westerfield was under constant surveillance. That's not "reasonable doubt"?

I am confident that the jury heard as much, or more, of the bug evidence, than you and I did. For all twelve of them, it apparently wasn't persuasive.

Now I can conclude several things. The jury is dumb, and you are smarter. Or vice versa. Or bug evidence isn't pure science. But for the jury, it wasn't the slam dunk the defense had promised, was it?

691 posted on 08/21/2002 4:58:40 PM PDT by truth_seeker
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To: wallcrawlr
I'm surprised at the "Not guilty", because I thought the prosecution would have to show how the child was kidnapped since that was part of the charge. Well, appeals time has come.
692 posted on 08/21/2002 4:59:39 PM PDT by tutstar
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To: PrairieDawg
Shouldn't there be more physical evidence than they found? There should be prints everywhere and DNA everywhere.

Yes--including Westerfield's prints in his own motor home. Those were conspicuously missing as well.

Take some time and smell the bleach!

693 posted on 08/21/2002 4:59:46 PM PDT by NautiNurse
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To: agarrett
Drew,

I hope you are right.
694 posted on 08/21/2002 5:00:15 PM PDT by domestice
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To: Slip18
The only thing I can't figure out is how this case got to trial so quickly.

Because the defense wanted the defendant to have a "speedy trial" which is his right.

695 posted on 08/21/2002 5:00:36 PM PDT by truth_seeker
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To: agrandis
their original food source.

...their original food source in the garbage container was very limited...just like desert conditions would naturally be.

I saw one adult fly carrying them and the rest were on the floor going in various directions!

I've seen the mealy bugs-fly do the same thing...just crawling though---big time!

696 posted on 08/21/2002 5:03:32 PM PDT by f.Christian
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To: TomB
What you "saw" was a mob mentality.
697 posted on 08/21/2002 5:03:58 PM PDT by lawdog
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To: FresnoDA
Common sense wins out. Excellent.
698 posted on 08/21/2002 5:06:13 PM PDT by Greg Weston
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To: HoneyBoo
I think the reporters that call forensic entomology "junk science" would probably be the same ones that trust all sociologists and psychiatrists (the modern witch doctors of our society). Forensic entomology is an unusually exact science, actually.

I'm no expert, but from the little I have studied it, and from what I know about the insect world, I think it is an underuitlized and potentially VERY useful tool in forensics. I think it is every bit as useful as DNA evidence.

Just as in DNA evidence, the handling of the sample is crucial. A wrong identification of the exact species could really screw you up, for example. The body definitely IS affected by variables in the environment, but the variables that are important can be fairly reliably verified, I think. For instance, temperatures and RH are always taken into account in forensic entomology. I believe temperature is the most critical variable, by far. Of course, microclimates are very important. For instance, if a body is found in a barn, house, or greenhouse, temperatures from the local airport may not help you build a very accurate picture. If a body is found in the shade in the summer, the degree days can be adjusted by taking the temperatures at the point where the body was found, and comparing them to the local temperatures that are on record, wherever those are gathered.

BTW, forensic entomology, as you may know, more often than not does not involve murder cases. More common cases are civil suits involving wood-destroying organisms or pests of stored products.

699 posted on 08/21/2002 5:07:45 PM PDT by agrandis
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To: tutstar
The key to proving kidnaping is the 911 call and the parent's emphatically denying that they knew where she was or with who, and that they had not given her or anyone she might be with, any form of permission.

How she was taken isn't necessary to prove kidnaping. Only that she was missing without parental consent or knowledge.

Enticing a child with promises of candy, asking them to come with you to find a puppy, snatching them off bikes or out of their own beds, it's all kidnaping.
700 posted on 08/21/2002 5:08:42 PM PDT by Valpal1
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