Pope Warns of (EU) "Liberalism" (at Open Air Mass in Poland)(Title from AOL News)

Yahoo! News (AP) ^ | 8/18/02 | Monika Scislowska (AP)

[ishmac]

Great pics!! I am so glad I saw him last month in Toronto. I didn't expect to be so moved at a mass of 800,000 people, but I was.

Niech zije Papez!!

[P8riot]

Don't you think that it is odd that a group of men (Cardinals) can infer the office of Pope (the supposed apolstolic successor) to another man. This man is supposed to be (and this is my assumption) the liason between God and the Catholic Church. Now if that man is truly a successor to the apostles he should speak with the same voice as they. However you have a concern that the next Pope will be liberal and not hold to the teachings of John Paul II, which I believe is a valid concern. If this man, or any man is truly the voice of God to his people then his message should never change, as I believe that God is unchangeable.

Therefore the question exists:

Which one of these men (a conservative Pope, or his liberal successor) is the real voice of God, if either truly are?

I see a serious conflict here, and a definite contradiction. Don't get me wrong, I am not Catholic bashing here. I have a great many friends who are Catholic, some in the clergy (We get into these type of discussions often). My concern is for the Catholic people (my sister and her family are Catholic) and that all of this either confuses them, or they just march lock-step with whoever wears the mitre in the Vatican. I would hope that whoever is John Paul II's successor carries on as he has, and my prayers will be to that effect. The Catholic Church (especially here in the states) has gone through too much lately.

[mvpel]

Those that call themselves Christians and consider themselves to be liberals should look long and hard at the scriptures, there are always responsibilities that accompany rights.

During Passover Seder I enjoy bringing up this subject in the discussion of the miracles that intimidated Pharoh into freeing the Israelites from slavery - in virtually every one of the miracles performed by G-d, an action by Moses or Aaron was the first step: Moses throwing the staff to the ground, pointing it at the sky, or Aaron's extending his hand over the water or striking the waters of the Nile, marking the lentels and doorposts with the blood of the lamb, and so on right up to the parting of the waters.

Those who stand idly by and wait for G-d to work miracles in their lives are failing to heed the lesson of their own role and responsibility of G-d's work in their lives.

[Desdemona]

"His contributions, plus those of Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, formed a triumvirate that tore down the Iron Curtain. ...But he will also be remembered for being a messenger for Divine Mercy, an international traveler, and a moral leader. We have much to thank John Paul II for, and we should pray that a worthy successor is chosen to replace him when he finally leaves this stage in life."

You're absolutely right here. His contributions to the church go far deeper than anyone can imagine. JPII was an adviser to Paul VI and for all intents and purposes wrote more than one important encyclical while Paul VI was pope (Humanae Vitae being the big one). JPII's stamp is all over the current teachings.

Over the weekend, a few thoughts occured as the dates of several happenings in the 1950's, 60's and 70's. I was young in 1978, but it seems to me it took a few tries before JPI was elected. At that point, there was a huge struggle for the soul of the church. That much is obvious. John XXIII and Paul VI were not strong leaders and things got out of hand, or so it sounds. So, however JPI died (I prefer the DIvine Veto theory), we were given a reprieve, IMO. When told of JPI's passing, the story goes, JPII was eating breakfast, wiped his lips, paused and said, "The Lord moves in mysterious ways." And that was all he had to say, but it was known that he was not happy with the choice of JPI (I can't remember his name this early). Anyone on the inside with half a brain had to know what was happening and the voting...well, think of the way the US House votes. I can imagine it being the same way.

THis pope has concentrated on youth and I think this has been deliberate in order to build a base. A good, conservative, moral base. The group before my generation are nowhere close to accepting the message of sacrifice. He is loved not only because he is good, but because he gets out from behind the walls of the Vatican and directly impacts the people.

As for his successor, I hope he's a conservative and strong one. This is not an office for weakness. It of course is in my prayers, but JPII won't leave us until his job is done and he doesn't think it is. An older man with a will of iron like that will live until he is ready. I've watched too many older men in their 80's to doubt that.

[MadIvan]

Paul VI and John XXIII were both liberal popes. This was bad news for the Church; the Church has recovered some under JP II, but it will take a few more popes like him in order for the recovery to be complete.

In terms of conservative successors, it is likely that the next pope will return to tradition and be Italian; the sad truth of the matter is that the Italians tend to be more liberal than say their Eastern European counterparts.

I would argue we should go through Hungary, the Czech Republic and so on before returning to the Italians in order for them to get their house in order.

Regards, Ivan

[ishmac]

I would argue we should go through Hungary, the Czech Republic...

Cardinal Vlk of Prague is a liberal. His name means "wolf" in Czech. Saints preserve us from a "wolf" pope!

[MadIvan]

Cardinal Vlk of Prague is a liberal.

Maybe the floods in Prague have been a religious experience for him. ;)

Regards, Ivan

[traditionalist]

The cardinals vote on the pope, and this pope has been putting very very hard conservatives in place.

Yeah, like Cardinal Mahony.

[Desdemona]

How long has Mahoney been in his current post? It seems an awfully long time.

And I doubt seriously the next pope is going to come from the US.

[Desdemona]

"Paul VI and John XXIII were both liberal popes."

While this is true, they were also weak leaders. The worst of the problems blossomed under their collective watch, but it probably started earlier. The protestant uprising is dated in the 15th century, but the beginnings were in the 13th. No, it was all perculating and boiled over under a couple of weak leaders. Crises require strong leaders and we didn't have them at the height. So, there was this tidal wave of a mess and after every tidal wave, there is a clean-up (currently underway). And yes, it's going to take a few generations to do it. The falling apart didn't happen overnite.

"In terms of conservative successors, it is likely that the next pope will return to tradition and be Italian"

I dunno. This is going to be interesting all the way around.

Honestly, speculation is sort of moot. It's not like any of us have control over it.

[MadIvan]

And yes, it's going to take a few generations to do it. The falling apart didn't happen overnite.

I believe much of it has to do with a fundamental tension in the church, and this tension revolves around the question: Do we go with the flow of societal change, or remain an anchor in turbulent times?. From John XXIII until the accession of JP II, the drift was to "go with the flow". This is not to say the liberals got it all their own way, but they got a good deal of what they've wanted. This direction has been reversed under JP II. But as you rightly point out, it takes time.

Honestly, speculation is sort of moot. It's not like any of us have control over it.

Nor a vote. ;)

Best Regards, Ivan

[Sam Cree]

Hopefully he is not referring to classical liberalism, though this: "freedom without truth or responsibility makes me think that he may not be.

I'm not so up to speed on his politics, though.

[traditionalist]

John Paul II made Mahony a cardinal in 1991. So it's been 11 years. I don't think that's a very long time.

You are right that the next pope will not be American. My only point was that John Paul II has appointed a lot of very liberal cardinals. Hence there is a significant possibility that a liberal pope will emerge from the next conclave.

[traditionalist]

Hopefully he is not referring to classical liberalism

No, but classical liberalism, like all utopian philosophies, is incompatible with Catholicism.

[Sam Cree]

I disagree strongly that classical liberalism is a utopian philosophy. However, I might agree that parts of Catholicism are incompatible with it.

I mean the classical liberalism as it existed 100 years ago, though, not the leftist version that we now hear about.

[Puddleglum]

God bless the Pope and sustain him; in a society that loves crises and controversy I hope he remains a calm, clear voice of true moral conservatism for many years to come. I hope he reminds the "modern" world, America included, of the true responsibility for compassion we bear. It's when conservatives cede or ignore this personal duty in a quest for maximum profits that the great impersonal state machines of compassion without respect for human dignity swell up; it's when we ignore the mystery of the cross that pain and imperfect health, rather than sin, become the greatest evils.

These excerpts from his sermon, and the many disinterested but nonethless shrill critics of his health, make me want to read "A Canticle for Liebowitz" again.

[iconoclast]

Any thoughts on whether the next pope will be a liberal? If so, it would be very unfortunate.

Thanks be to God for this great man (saint?). The only positive thought I ever have with respect to his "retirement" is that he might yield a heavy hand in the naming of the next Pope.

[iconoclast]

Many conservatives consider the editorial pages of the WSJ to be conservative, but the commentary and opinion pieces are standard, run of the mill moderate punditry.

Moderate and decidedly NWO.

[eleni121]

Yeah great! But why hasn't he done anything serious about the sex scandals not only here but internationally? Why the silence? Why can't the Pope excommunicate the bishops and others who have commited these terrible acts upon our children?

[ninenot]

...and as a bonus, we Catholics may no longer solicit your interest in 'turning.' (A little humor) There is no question, regardless of one's religion, that JPII is a remarkable figure and an extremely holy man.