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Study: "Jumping Genes" Create Ripples in the Genome- -and Perhaps Species' Evolution
JHMI Office of Communications and Public Affairs ^ | August 15, 2002 | Johns Hopkins, et al

Posted on 08/17/2002 6:06:34 PM PDT by forsnax5

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To: forsnax5
No biological equivalent to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. Any amount of non-determinism makes a system non-deterministic. I'm not sure what you mean by weakly-deterministic. It is true that non-deterministic Turing machines use the non-determinism in a constrained way.

I'm not sure either whether the described mechanism is non-deterministic at all levels. All that is happening here is that a copy a gene during meiosis may be changed in a manner not locally described. (Changing one base would be local; moving lots of bases around isn't.)
41 posted on 08/18/2002 8:59:52 AM PDT by Doctor Stochastic
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To: PatrickHenry
where their betters are constrained by civilized rules of conduct.

Very funny! Seems to me that some one who feels constrained by civilized rules of conduct is not a very good person, don't ya think?

42 posted on 08/18/2002 9:07:08 AM PDT by gore3000
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Placemarker
43 posted on 08/18/2002 9:23:20 AM PDT by Dementon
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To: forsnax5
Is there a biological equivalent to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle?

Who knows? Until we decipher everything in the genetic code, which will probably be never, we will not be able to be certain about it.

Transposons however are apparently quite undeterministic. For example some will insert themselves in specific places and later delete itself and leave things as they were - but not all the time!

44 posted on 08/18/2002 9:31:46 AM PDT by gore3000
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To: PatrickHenry
All the genuine creeps are avoiding it, preferring to stay out here in the regular forums, where their betters are constrained by civilized rules of conduct.

I can think of a notable exception, although you're right about the regular crowd.

45 posted on 08/18/2002 9:34:07 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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Comment #46 Removed by Moderator

To: tallhappy
The reason I point out the ignorance and shortcomings of a certain group here is because they are rude, arrogant, cruel, disdainful and nasty to others all the time.

In contrast to your own style of rude, arrogant, cruel, disdainful, nasty, and informationless posting, perhaps?

47 posted on 08/18/2002 9:57:41 AM PDT by balrog666
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To: VadeRetro
37 and 36 -- way way off.

The problem is, there really is no such thing as a backward gene. It is a phrase used by the university PR department that wrote the article to illustrate or explain something.

Here are the keys -- 1) trancription is driven by promoter elements.

2) The DNA's orientation within the context of the chromosome can change. That doesn't mean it is "backwards". Orientation is what is meant, not backwards. Turn your car around and go the other way and you are not driving backwards.

The "backwards" gene and protein you guys are talking about is present in either orientation, before or after a retrotransposition that changes the DNA orientation in the chromosome. All six reading frames are present no matter what the orientation.

48 posted on 08/18/2002 10:03:33 AM PDT by tallhappy
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To: balrog666
In contrast to your own style of rude, arrogant, cruel, disdainful, nasty, and informationless posting, perhaps?

No. I am acting in that manner purposely.

Notice, though, when vaderetro actually dropped his defensive shield and spoke like a human being, I answered him with no insult at all?

Notice also how no one has answered any of my questions?

It is because they don't know. What do you think about a group of people who base their identity and philosophy of life on a subject they know nothing about and don't understand?

Yet, they demean and insult anyone who does not share their quasi-religious views?

It's just weird. Their behavior is very cult-like.

49 posted on 08/18/2002 10:10:34 AM PDT by tallhappy
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Any amount of non-determinism makes a system non-deterministic. I'm not sure what you mean by weakly-deterministic.

Actually, I said "weakly non-deterministic." :)

I was thinking that since these "Jumping Gene" events don't seem to go very far, that the "Turing" logic hit a stop rather quickly -- a point where a condition arises that has no "next instruction" to execute.

Perhaps viewing this process as a Turing machine is a weak metaphor.

There may be no particular mechanism behind it at all. Any sequence of events that has a beginning state and an expected ending state has a possibility of failure. In meiosis, the failure rate is quite small, but not zero.

Now, I'm certain that geneticists have recognized before now that meiosis doesn't always complete "correctly," but perhaps the view has been that it was all or nothing; success or catastrophe. Now they're seeing an intermidate position that's more subtle than they'd thought possible.

50 posted on 08/18/2002 10:14:31 AM PDT by forsnax5
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To: forsnax5
There may be no particular mechanism behind it at all.

What is it?

Obviously there is a mechanism for the transposition. But that's not the it you are talking about.

Also, what is the more subtle meiotic intermediate you are talking about?

51 posted on 08/18/2002 10:26:25 AM PDT by tallhappy
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To: PatrickHenry
Placemarker.
52 posted on 08/18/2002 10:31:06 AM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: balrog666
In contrast to your own style of rude, arrogant, cruel, disdainful, nasty, and informationless posting, perhaps?

No, he means in contrast to the endlessly polite and reasoned postings by medved and Gore3000. After all, all the rude behavior and personal attacks are coming from the E side of the table, obviously.

53 posted on 08/18/2002 10:42:00 AM PDT by general_re
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To: PatrickHenry; VadeRetro
Someday, tallhappy is going to go after something apochromat says, and FR will be destroyed by the feedback.
54 posted on 08/18/2002 10:45:23 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: tallhappy
No. I am acting in that manner purposely.

I think it defeats your purpose and unnecessarily antagonizes everyone.

Notice, though, when vaderetro actually dropped his defensive shield and spoke like a human being, I answered him with no insult at all?

I noticed. The reason behind it was less apparent.

Notice also how no one has answered any of my questions?

Neither have you.

It is because they don't know.

Probably so. I certainly don't. Why not explain it then?

What do you think about a group of people who base their identity and philosophy of life on a subject they know nothing about and don't understand?

Complete nonsequitur. And complete nonsense in my opinion. People don't base their "identity" on the latest scientific research or on the arcane and theoretical details of any particular scientific field. And most don't even think about the question of their identity at all.

Ask people what their philosophy of life is and 98% will have never seriously thought about it in their entire lives and the rest have no answer that will satisfy everyone.

Yet, they demean and insult anyone who does not share their quasi-religious views?

Or they respond in kind as I did.

It's just weird. Their behavior is very cult-like.

It's human nature which you seem to make little allowance for.

55 posted on 08/18/2002 10:56:21 AM PDT by balrog666
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To: general_re
all the rude behavior and personal attacks are coming from the E side of the table, obviously.

Exactly.

Look at this thread. I read it not because anything having to do with the silly e vs c circus.

It's interesting work and also fun to talk about the way the work is publicized.

Yet what happens. The cultist come in and out of the blue start screaming about creationists or whatever.

Not only are they close minded rude petty vindictive and ignorant, they are disruptors.

Nothing can come before their obsessions.

56 posted on 08/18/2002 10:58:44 AM PDT by tallhappy
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To: tallhappy
all the rude behavior and personal attacks are coming from the E side of the table, obviously.

Exactly.

Well, thanks for sharing, anyway...

57 posted on 08/18/2002 11:02:23 AM PDT by general_re
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To: balrog666
I do answer if people ask. Yet these sad sacks will not admit they don't know. They get very defensive when the curtain is pulled away.

I like to give people time to respond. And, I also like to know if they actually care. If they actually do have any interest in biology. Usually the case is no, which is very strange given their dogmatic beliefs.

Anyhow, the first is Barbara McClintock.

58 posted on 08/18/2002 11:04:51 AM PDT by tallhappy
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To: tallhappy
And these idiots have no idea what it is they worship. Don't understand even the basics of modern biology.

As you say, but what have you done to correct this? Nothing. You've contributed only your bile.

59 posted on 08/18/2002 11:07:35 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: forsnax5
What this means to you is that you'd better seel your stock in Monsanto before Roundup ready genes spread to weeds. (Just musing.)
60 posted on 08/18/2002 11:09:45 AM PDT by wattsmag2
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