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To: Chemnitz
Americans like education and pay for it. But they do not like what the public system is offering.

We often see people on threads like this who simply condemn public schools out of hand. I do not trust such people, because more often than not they appear to condemn public education primarily to serve some other personal and/or political agenda that has little to do with education. No, I don't trust the NEA and the "education establishment" -- but neither do I trust foamers-at-the-mouth on the opposite side of the debate.

It is true that many public schools are failing. But the problem with public schools is not that they're public. After all, public schools of old were often quite good. Moreover, there are still many excellent public school teachers -- and even entire public school districts -- who do a very good job of teaching kids. Indeed, the public school systems of certain other countries still do very well.

The real problem -- in public education as elsewhere -- has mostly to do with competence. The main difficulty with public education is that it is too difficult for any but Ed-school graduates to get teaching jobs. Alas, schools of education rarely teach anything except technique -- graduates rarely know anything about the subjects they're expected to teach. (I saw the transition when I was in high school -- the difference between teachers with real and ed-school degrees was embarrasingly obvious, as was the difference in quality in their results.)

People with real degrees often stay away because of the unbelievable obstacle course set up for them by the unions and their sympathizers.

Unfortunately, conservatives have only made the problem worse by insisting on "accountability," which in practice means more testing and paperwork, and less time spent on teaching and preparation.

The solution? It's actually pretty easy: do away with "Degrees in Education," and return to the old system where teachers are required to have a degree in an actual subject. Teacher certification would require a few specialized classes (my wife had maybe 5 actually useful education courses).

58 posted on 08/17/2002 11:55:35 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: r9etb
The real problem -- in public education as elsewhere -- has mostly to do with competence

This simply is not true. The government school system has an agenda and it is NOT about educating children. If you had your eyes wide open you'd know that public schooling is working but not for the right reasons.
You certainly do not sound like a person who is favor of homeschooling or is very conservative.
No one here is foaming at the mouth and I really do not appreciate your implication here on this thread of homeschoolers.

72 posted on 08/17/2002 12:49:17 PM PDT by Boxsford
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To: r9etb
I agree with you. Although I would rather see the public system replaced, I know it won't be. It is odd that so many method requirements are set up for teachers and so little is necessary in the way of knowing content. For instance, the Head Start program wanted helpers who were earning a master's in PRE-SCHOOL education. The senior teacher of the program I knew seemed to hate kids. The children survived her, but it made me wonder about how confused requirements can be.

To teach in a community college in Arizona one needs a master's degree and a certification process that includes one 3-credit course. University teaching usually requires a worthwhile doctorate, not 32 hours in education. So there is quite a difference between what we expect for K-12 and college.
82 posted on 08/17/2002 1:37:32 PM PDT by Chemnitz
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To: r9etb
"No, I don't trust the NEA and the "education establishment" -- but neither do I trust foamers-at-the-mouth on the opposite side of the debate. "

I've not seen anyone on this thread 'foaming at the mouth.' Interesting observation.

"It is true that many public schools are failing.
*snip*
The real problem -- in public education as elsewhere -- has mostly to do with competence. The main difficulty with public education is that it is too difficult for any but Ed-school graduates to get teaching jobs. Alas, schools of education rarely teach anything except technique -- graduates rarely know anything about the subjects they're expected to teach. (I saw the transition when I was in high school -- the difference between teachers with real and ed-school degrees was embarrasingly obvious, as was the difference in quality in their results.)

People with real degrees often stay away because of the unbelievable obstacle course set up for them by the unions and their sympathizers. "

I find it enlightening that you yourself stated that many public schools are failing... but that the answer is not to pull our kids out. So we should leave them in there hoping for some change that might bring competence back? I don't think so. My children are only young this once.

My husband and I chose to begin homeschooling our boys when the first one was in kindergarten. I was nervous about it, but my husband believes in a classical education. One that can produce a great thinker like the men that started our country. Schools, for the most part, do not teach kids to think. They teach them to memorize and spit back. We wanted to produce thinkers. Men capable of being leaders some day. My aunt is an awesome teacher. So I was nervous about telling her we were going to homeschool. I assumed she would have the typical comment "with the right teacher..." Guess what her reply was. She said, "If you're willing to do it. Absolutely go for it! You can teach your kids in one to two hours what it takes me to teach a classroom in a day. So much of the school day is wasted with this and that and bringing along the last kid." She says she's just "biding her time" till she can retire and that kids are so much worse than 20 years ago that she can hardly stand it. Mean, disrespectful... I'm betting your lovely experience in public school happened a good many years ago.

Our oldest is thirteen and our youngest ten now. And they are incredible. My husband and I both work from home so our family is together most of the time. We didn't choose to homeschool to isolate our children, but to give them a more broad experience about life instead of being tied to a desk all day.

Our boys accompanied us to Italy and Spain for the month of May. We were able to go BEFORE other kids were out of school and the continent was overrun with tourists. It was a wonderful geography, history, art and culture extravaganza! And all due to the fact that we homeschool. The boys are now considering doing an exchange program when they're older. They loved Rome. :) We stayed in apartments run by the "real" people of the countries instead of hotels. We met the most wonderful sweet people and the boys loved interacting. They kept their chess board in their backpack in hopes to get some of the "old timers" to play chess.

We have friends in our neighborhood. Friends in the homeschool group. Two of my 13 yr olds favorite "friends" are in their twenties. We met a guy in his late 20's at the pool one day. My son talked to him for over an hour. When we went home he told me how much he and Oscar have in common... their love of history, reading, sci-fi... and he told me about how Oscar was raised in Texas, the son of a Mexican father and a American mother... how Oscar was ostracized by both nationalities for not being "one of them." Oscar has a large purple birthmark on his forehead (port wine stain)... they discussed the trouble he had in school with that. All that because they were at the pool when other kids were in school and met "real people"... Oh yeah, I should mention, Oscar operates heavy machinery. Did the way Oscar looked, or what he did for a living affect my son in any way? No. Because he sees people as people. With things he can learn from them. Not as specimens in a zoo as you strangely mentioned. And this is only an antecdotal story... I could tell you many more... and all thanks to homeschooling do we have the ability to expose them to such interesting and diverse people.

My husband works in the movie business so we have a variety of "interesting" friends. I do web design and graphics. The kids make extra money by being extras in movies and TV shows that are shot near us... We meet a few interesting people there... and no, I don't cover their ears and hide thier eyes. But it sometimes gives us some very good topics to discuss. Yes, we are Christians, but our friends are from a variety of "walks"... Even in my husband's family there's a Buddhist, Muslim, Mormon, Int'l Church of Christ, Seventh Day Adventist and Catholic. How's that for diversity?

I wasn't intending to "write a book" here. But I do tire of this ridiculous attitude about 'sheltering' our children. There are things they SHOULD be sheltered from. And plenty they experience that's even better than the interaction in public school they might "miss out" on. They are best friends. We have a fabulous open relationship with them. They're not "peer dependent" which means they want to look nice but don't feel an overwhelming need to keep up with the latest fads in clothes and music. If they like something they do. And if they don't, they really don't care if someone else does. It's called "individuality." A novel idea these days, I know.

Are there some extreme homeschoolers? Sure. As in life, anything can be taken to the extreme. There are also parents that are extreme in NOT doing anything with their kids. The rich kids in Colorado that shot their classmates are a good example of that. Does that mean that all public school kids whose parents work and are rich are going to shoot people? No. I look at facts and "what's actually there"... not a few extreme people and then paint anyone else in that category with the same brush.

Maybe you could try looking at people for what they are. Not through your "fear-colored glasses." Or not.

133 posted on 08/17/2002 4:08:56 PM PDT by TankGurrrl
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