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To: forsnax5
Feduccia gets a little "out there" in his insistence that birds and dinos are siblings, not child and parent. Here's what he's trying to make go away:

Fig. 1: Archaeopteryx Fig. 2: Deinonychus
Fig. 3: Hoatzin chick Fig. 4: Hoatzin adult
That's Archaeopteryx, the theropod dinosaur Deinonychus, and a modern bird (Hoatzin) that as a juvenile has a "throwback" clawed forelimb similar to fossil early birds but grows out of it to become a flying adult.

From the article:

"Whatever the ancestor of birds was, it must have had five fingers, not the three-fingered hand of theropod dinosaurs," Feduccia said.

The standard reptilian forelimb has five fingers, of course. Theropods evolved to lose two. Most scientists think birds simply inherited this same manus. In fact, this similarity was one of the lines of evidence that suggested a dinosaur ancestry for birds in the first place.

"Scientists agree that dinosaurs developed 'hands' with digits one, two and three -- which are the same as the thumb, index and middle fingers of humans -- because digits four and five remain as vestiges or tiny bumps on early dinosaur skeletons. Apparently many dinosaurs developed very specialized, almost unique 'hands' for grasping and raking.

I can't tell where the problem is. Maybe the observation of which fingers are lost on the dinosaur is wrong.

"Our studies of ostrich embryos, however, showed conclusively that in birds, only digits two, three and four, which correspond to the human index, middle and ring fingers, develop, and we have pictures to prove it," said Feduccia, professor and former chair of biology at UNC. "This creates a new problem for those who insist that dinosaurs were ancestors of modern birds. How can a bird hand, for example, with digits two, three and four evolve from a dinosaur hand that has only digits one, two and three? That would be almost impossible."
Or maybe Feduccia is seeing what he wants, not what is there. I can't tell where the problem is, but it's unlikely that the figure above is just a misleading coincidence.
10 posted on 08/15/2002 8:24:31 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
Or maybe Feduccia is seeing what he wants, not what is there.

Who knows. Not being a subscriber, I can't see the full the article.

11 posted on 08/15/2002 8:36:37 AM PDT by balrog666
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To: VadeRetro
I can't tell where the problem is, but it's unlikely that the figure above is just a misleading coincidence.

Your fossil diagrams are (probably) adult creatures. The premise of the article seems to be that it's not possible to determine which of the basic five "fingers" have developed in adult birds by looking at adult skeletons.

The hoatzin adult is an interesting example of rather dramatic changes in the life cycle of the bird. Reviewing the two skeletons as fossils a few million years from now, it would be difficult to see the actual relationship.

If what the article claims is true, it would appear that the later examples of feathered dinos were a second, never completed path to feathered flight.

19 posted on 08/15/2002 9:19:47 AM PDT by forsnax5
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