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Your characterizations certainly have a basis in reality, but they aren't universal. If you had acknowleged exceptions, what you said would've been more valid, but it wouldn't have been a refutation of libertarianism. It's entirely possible that some other type of libertarianism than the one you described in the quote below is correct (and I believe that one is).

Libertarians believe that people are perfectible through reason. In other words, the government is preventing people from acting reasonably because of various laws etc. and all the government needs to do is get out of the way and everyone will start acting like Mr. Spock i.e. perfectly logical.

I certainly don't believe that. Well, I do believe that often the government makes people act unreasonably. But there are cases where the government makes (or tries to make) people act reasonably that I still oppose. Laws against crack, for example. I also believe that people are perfectible by (not through) Christ., not reason or anything they contain in themselves.

And anyway, I haven't read any of the libertarian greats (Locke, Bastiat, Mises, and so on) saying anything like that. Maybe I missed it. Maybe you were just going by your impressions of a debased popular form of libertarianism.

People are born basically wicked and need to work hard to be good.

There are Calvinist conservatives who believe that people are born entirely wicked (total depravity) and that no amount of hard work could make them good. "Good", maybe, but not good. There are also Calvinist libertarian like me who believe the same thing.

Conservatives value social order first and foremost.

That sounds an awful lot like an abstract premise. If it isn't, it has the potential to be. If you took it and ran with it, you'd wind up like our friend Cultural Jihad.

Well, it's certainly a broad brush, but most of what I've said is accurate.

I also agree that people are perfected by Christ, so we're together on that.

In terms of whether or not people are completely wicked, this is not true in the USA because of our cultural inheratance. But in, say, Afghanistan, this is unfortunately very true.

Cheers, HV

Well, it's certainly a broad brush, but most of what I've said is accurate.

I also agree that people are perfected by Christ, so we're together on that.

In terms of whether or not people are completely wicked, this is not true in the USA because of our cultural inheratance. But in, say, Afghanistan, this is unfortunately very true.

Cheers, HV