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To: laredo44
"The belief system that goes furthest in restricting atrocious behaviors is one with liberty as the prime engine. That is because any attempt to initiate force against another is a violation of liberty. Liberty neither requires nor precludes belief in God."

Let me cut to the chase here. It is impossible to found a society based on the idea of "liberty" or "fairness" or "justice" or whatever because everyone disagrees about what these ideas entail. Your version of "liberty" is going to be much more preferential to your position than my definition of "liberty". And everyone is going to have to have their own version of "liberty" or "fairness" or whatever.

So, guess what. In a society such as this someone is going to have to decide which version of "liberty" or "fairness" or "justice" is going to prevail. And because you can't appeal to God for authority, well then you have to appeal to force. If I refuse to go along with a version of "liberty" that I personally disagree with, then you're going to have to "initiate force" against me to comply, in direct contravention of your stated "gold standard" for libertarianism.

And who gets to decide what "liberty" or "justice" or whatever actually means? An intellectual elite? The people with the most guns? Who?

From my point of view, libertarianism--the atheistic variety--looks like this: an abstract idea that requires some sort of elite to make arbitrary decisions to stop that abstract idea from plunging into absurdity. These arbitrary decisions are backed up with force.

Gee, sounds like tyranny to me.

176 posted on 08/12/2002 2:13:30 PM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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To: HumanaeVitae
So far you haven't given us any reason to choose your particular interpretation of religion above others that may disagree. How do you determine if you'r getting morally legitimate commands from whoever is telling you what to do? How do you distinguish the prophet from the deluded? What if your religion tells you to sacrifice your children? How would you know this is wrong? (If you actually believe it wrong.)
182 posted on 08/12/2002 2:37:13 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic
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To: HumanaeVitae
From my point of view, libertarianism--the atheistic variety--looks like this: an abstract idea that requires some sort of elite to make arbitrary decisions to stop that abstract idea from plunging into absurdity. These arbitrary decisions are backed up with force.

Sorry for your confusion. There is no arbitrary decision making elite required. Initiating force is wrong. That's the deal.

241 posted on 08/12/2002 4:29:40 PM PDT by laredo44
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To: HumanaeVitae
It is impossible to found a society based on the idea of "liberty" or "fairness" or "justice" or "God's Will" or "Faith" or "Divine Revelation" or whatever because everyone disagrees about what these ideas entail.

Just correcting a few omissions

292 posted on 08/12/2002 5:36:41 PM PDT by steve-b
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To: HumanaeVitae
Let me cut to the chase here. It is impossible to found a society based on the idea of "liberty" or "fairness" or "justice" or whatever because everyone disagrees about what these ideas entail.

So we should base our society on God because we all agree there?

And because you can't appeal to God for authority, well then you have to appeal to force.

Explain, please how we appeal to God's authority. Who is to be the intermediary? How do we establish they're not just making stuff up?

300 posted on 08/12/2002 6:10:22 PM PDT by laredo44
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