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To: GOPcapitalist
Yeah, and the northerner's openly admitted among themselves at the time to intentionally framing the compromise debates around that issue for political reasons to their own advantage. Read their eyewitness histories and letters if you doubt me.

The south admitted that the basic problem was about extending slavery to the territories.  If northern politicians framed this to their advantage, it still doesn't change the fact that this was the biggest sticking point in north-south relations.  Lincoln framed the entire Lincoln-Douglas series of debates around slavery.  Certainly it was to his advantage.  And most assuredly it was the biggest hot-button issue by far in the entire country at the time.

No they didn't. Louis Wigfall, one of the first southern senators to take up the secessionist cause, identified the problem in a December 6 speech as strictly economics. He said that, despite their protests otherwise, the almighty dollar was driving the yankee cause at southern expense and that if it could be worked out there would be no problem. He then concluded that the yankees had made the situation unworkable and therefore secession had become the only course of action for the south. Then he issued one of the first serious calls for his colleagues to secede.


 If you are talking of his "Cotton is King" speech, that has got to be one of the more delusional and arrogant pieces of work of the period.   Basically, he is saying that cotton is far more important than food.   In fact, he goes so far as to say that if England has a famine in corn but plenty of cotton, there are few problems.  However, if the situation is reversed, there are riots.  Apparently, this guy never heard of the corn riots in England.

But to get to the text of the speech: He mentions that the strength of the government is the military chest and the almighty dollar.  He even talks a bit about one specific tariff (totally ignoring any others).  He also talks a bit about slavery and shows (indirectly) southern economics is based on it.  He never talks about yankees at all (although I grant you that it could be reasonably inferred that he was talking of northern interests in his speech).  His remarks are directed at the government - of which he is a member.  If economics were the overriding reason, the south would have split in the 1830s when taxes and tariffs were more onerous.  He also ignores the tariffs which were designed to help the south (such as the tariff on imported sugar - which was a boon to Louisiana).  Now contrast that with the comments of Lincoln and Alexander Stephens (vice-president of the Confederacy).  They both felt strongly that the entire issue hung on expansion of slavery to the territories (although Stephens also mentions other southern slavery-related greviences such as northern ordinances against slavery).

Show how any truncation of that quote changed Lincoln's meaning.


From your post #442 you say:

Also it was a southern fort insofar as it was in southern territory hundreds of miles away from any defensive interest of the north. Sumter was created as a federal fort by an act of South Carolina several years earlier but that act was rescinded during secession when South Carolina revoked all previous committments and ties to the northern government.


By this, I understand you to be saying that Ft. Sumter was no longer Federal territory.  Truncating the quote supports you supposition.  If, however, we read the entire text, we see that Lincoln feels that S.C. is invading federal land.

If you can substantiate your allegation of a fib on my part, please do so. Otherwise you shouldn't shoot your mouth off like that.


Well for one thing, you have contended that for purposes of secession, Ft. Sumter is a southern fort.  However, for purposes of invasion, it is not.  You can't have it both ways.  Please make up your mind.   For another very few of your references actually support many of your allegations.

Exactly what's to say about them? They don't change Lincoln's definition of invasion in any way not do they change the fact that by waging the war he met that definition of invasion.


Sure it does.  If Ft. Sumter was southern territory, then Lincoln was invading southern territory to keep it.  OTOH, if it was Union territory, then in order to maintain it, Lincoln was still invading southern territory, since he had to cross S.C. waters to get to it.  So by your definition, either way he was invading.  However, it is obvious that he felt (from the entire text) that it was S.C. doing the invading.  If we just read your posted text, a good case could be made that Lincoln was invading S.C. by trying to maintain Ft. Sumter - using his own words.  The fact is that Lincoln was accusing S.C. of invading federal territory.  By attacking and taking Ft. Sumter, S.C. declared war against the Union.  The south and north were officially (if uneasily) at peace at the time of the speech.  When the south declared war, the situation changed. To call Lincoln a liar for doing in war what he refused to do in peace is a bit over the top.

Uh, no. I don't believe I have. Show where if you think otherwise. I did say he invaded Virginia, and I did say he instigated hostility at Fort Sumter, but I don't believe I ever said he invaded Fort Sumter in the context of his own definition of invasion.

See my reference to your post 442 above.  If, as you assert, Ft. Sumter was no longer federal property when S.C. seceded, then Lincoln did indeed invade southern territory by trying to send troops to relieve it.  And how did he instigate hostility at Ft. Sumter - by being elected?

It was no more a _legitimate_ federal property than a british fort in Boston Harbor was legitimate English property circa 1777.


Lessee, S.C. cedes this property to the U.S. government, thus losing all rights to it.  It is not S.C. property any more.  Both the U.S. and S.C. agree.  Later, S.C. decides that it wants the fort back.  However, the U.S. doesn't agree.  It is still U.S. property.  Similarly, what if Mexico gives up a good chunk of its territory in the treaty of Hildago-Guadalupe then later claims it back?  The answer: "tough noogies bub."  Also the "British Fort in Boston Harbor" theory that you put forward doesn't help your argument one bit, because the U.K. had every right to do so at that time (their Carribean fleet was stationed out of New Orleans for years after the Napoleanic wars ended).  By the time of the treaty of Ghent, they had ceded such a right.

I will admit confusion by your comments.  OTOH it is not federal property, and OTOH it is.
485 posted on 08/22/2002 7:03:15 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
The south admitted that the basic problem was about extending slavery to the territories. If northern politicians framed this to their advantage, it still doesn't change the fact that this was the biggest sticking point in north-south relations.

Neither does it establish what it as the biggest "sticking point," as you call it. If I recall correctly, your "proof" that the slavery extension issue was the main conflict was that many compromise proposals dealt heavily with this issue. I responded by noting that the North worked hard to make sure the debate was framed on this issue and openly admitted doing so. You respond that they worked hard to frame the debate around this issue because it was the main issue, your supposed proof of which being that the debate was framed around it. You are using a circular argument.

Lincoln framed the entire Lincoln-Douglas series of debates around slavery. Certainly it was to his advantage.

Then why did he lose the debates?

If you are talking of his "Cotton is King" speech, that has got to be one of the more delusional and arrogant pieces of work of the period.

Call it all the names that you like, it still doesn't change the fact that one of the most powerful secessionists rallied southerners to the secession call by citing economic grounds rather than slavery as the reason for leaving the union.

Basically, he is saying that cotton is far more important than food.

No. He's saying that in economic agricultural terms, the cotton market is king. Other commodoties are smaller in market sizes and more easily substituted by other agricultural markets than cotton is.

In fact, he goes so far as to say that if England has a famine in corn but plenty of cotton, there are few problems.

Considering that England could substitute away for its corn shortage with any one of the dozens of other agricultural food products whereas cotton was not near as easily substituted, the argument is reasonable.

However, if the situation is reversed, there are riots. Apparently, this guy never heard of the corn riots in England.

The corn riots were class-based "fair cost" uprisings caused in the fallout of the last remnants of a pre-industrial earlier feudal society. They happened long before cotton's 19th century emergence as what it was in 1860 and are economically incomparable to the situation at the time the speech was given. Try again.

But to get to the text of the speech: He mentions that the strength of the government is the military chest and the almighty dollar. He even talks a bit about one specific tariff (totally ignoring any others).

The obvious grievance is protectionism. His point is that money is driving the northern side of things, and argues that northerners need for the southern market might even prompt them to take up the then-extreme and unthinkable measure of direct taxation to pay for their government.

He also talks a bit about slavery and shows (indirectly) southern economics is based on it.

Barely if at all, and it's definately not the central argument of his speech. Economics and taxation are. He never talks about yankees at all (although I grant you that it could be reasonably inferred that he was talking of northern interests in his speech).

Really? Cause much of the speech itself is directed as a message toward the northerners - "When you have lost your market; when your operatives are turned out; when your capitalists are broken, will you go to direct taxation?"

He also lodges repeated grievances with yankeeland by referring to it by name repeatedly:

"Your irrepressible conflict is predicated upon the supposition that this is a consolidated Government; that there are no States; that there is a national Government, as they call it; that the people who live between the two oceans and between the Gulf and the lakes are one people; that the boundaries of Massachusetts have, by some hocus pocus, been extending themselves until they embrace all the remainder of the Union"

His remarks are directed at the government - of which he is a member.

Actually, they are directed at a government which he argues to have become dominated by a specifically yankee brand of doing things. See above for his description of that government - its as if Massachusetts has extended itself around the remainder of the union and demanded everything be done by the massachusetts way, or yankee way.

If economics were the overriding reason, the south would have split in the 1830s when taxes and tariffs were more onerous.

Do you not recall your history? South Carolina almost did. As for taxes, they were about to become their highest level in over a decade and a half. When Wigfall spoke, the protectionist Morrill tariff bill had already passed the house several months earlier. It was up for debate in the senate, the last place it had any opposition, and would pass out of that chamber by the end of the session. Further, the incoming president, Lincoln, was an open protectionist who advocated the reinstatement of the tariff and would later assert that if it did not pass before he took office, it should be a legislative priority of the following session. The tariff threat was very real in 1861 and southerners openly noted it to be so.

He also ignores the tariffs which were designed to help the south (such as the tariff on imported sugar - which was a boon to Louisiana).

Irrelevent to the matter at hand. One pro-southern tariff does not change the pro-northern nature of protectionism and the favor given to it by that same region.

Now contrast that with the comments of Lincoln and Alexander Stephens (vice-president of the Confederacy).

I suppose you are referring to the supposed "cornerstone" speech. Fair enough. I need only note that Stephens was a unionist until the very last moment whereas Wigfall was one of the first secessionists. Wigfall spoke on behalf of the movement as a leader of the secessionist cause. No speech of Stephens can be said to contain the same. As for his "cornerstone" speech, make of it what you may as it does represent _a_ position taken by a prominent southerner. Just be careful while reading Stephens that you don't mistake him for a secessionist and that you always remain mindful of his own eccentricity as a person.

They both felt strongly that the entire issue hung on expansion of slavery to the territories

Wigfall doesn't in that speech. It's almost entirely economics.

523 posted on 08/22/2002 9:56:22 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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