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To: GOPcapitalist
It listed in detail the reasons that Texas seceded. To dismiss it out of hand is not the work of a serious scholar.

Neither is to engage in a drastic overstatement of its importance. I can safely say that you have done so in light of your comment comparing this resolution to the Declaration of Independence, though I believe you would be hard pressed to make you case against me for simply placing the document itself in perspective.


The Declaration of Independence not only notified Great Britain of the severing of national ties, it also gave reasons for this in great detail.  None of the secession ordinances gives the detail that the Declaration of Independence did.  The supporting documentation does.

However, if you take a look at the second, third and fourth paragraphs of the Texas ordinance of secession the matter becomes quite clear. The second paragraph mentions that neither citizens nor the property of citizens of Texas are protected.

In light of the fact that the yankees were willfully denying military protection for Texas frontiers, the claim is both necessary and valid.


Oh really?  Please show that Texas was getting less Federal protection than, say, Kansas or Missouri.

The third paragraph claims that the Northern states are in violation of the compact between the states.

Yep, and from Texas' perspective they were.


Uh huh.  From a slave-holding perspective, you are right.

The fourth paragraph indicates that Federal Government is being used as a weapon to strike down the interests and property of the slave-holding states.

Do you believe that a northern invasion of those states and their property was in the interest of the south?


This argument is totally bogus.  When did the North invade Texas prior to the Civil War?

Tell me, what property was the north trying to destroy that belonged to the south?

I suppose if we take Sherman's word on it cities, dwellings, factories, farms, railroads, and of course lives.


Another totally bogus argument.  When did Sherman invade Texas prior to the Civil War?  For that matter, when did Sherman ever invade Texas?

What interests of the southerners were the northerners trying to strike down?

The interest of self government.


Going 3 for 3 aren't you?  Lincoln and other northerners pledged to *not* interfere with any southern instituions.  That is quite unlike Texas' interference with New Mexican affairs.

Yes, nothing specific is mentioned directly. However, it was understood that the property that the slave-holding states were most concerned about was slaves.

The historical record seems to indicate otherwise to the degree that at very minimum other concerns were shared. County resolutions across the south from as early as February 1861 voice a very clear fear that the yankees were about to invade and in doing so violate the physical homes, dwellings, and land properties of southerners. Southern representatives expressed the same in Congress in December 1860.


Now trying 4 for 4?  Your reliance on these "non-binding" resolutions to bolster your case while denying them to me to make my case is disengenous indeed.  The preservation of slavery was the overwhelming theme mentioned in these resolutions.  The fears about a "northern invasion" that you mention were discussed after the southern states started seceding.  In case this is too subtle for you to understand, the south rebelled, then expressed anxiety about the possibility of being invaded.  Still don't understand?  The south slapped the north in the face, then expressed worry that they would get slapped back.

Yes, I was a bit over the top as far as comparing the Texas legislation to the Federalist Papers.

To put it mildly.


But your wilful mixing up of pre-civil war conditions with Civil War conditions is really over the top.

However, I only meant that they gave greater and more explicit detail on what was meant by the secession ordinance.

In some areas, sure they do. But similarly the causes resolution is not representative of the state itself or anything even remotely close to it whereas the secession ordinance is. The former was a non-binding legislative resolution passed after the fact. The latter was a popularly adopted referendum enacted as a valid measure of law.


Dismissing them because they are inconvenient is bad.  Picking and choosing which parts to dismiss (as you have done) is quite clintonesque.  By your own reasoning, the south had nothing to fear from invasion because the supporting documentation was a non-binding resolution.
195 posted on 08/13/2002 6:55:00 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
The Declaration of Independence not only notified Great Britain of the severing of national ties, it also gave reasons for this in great detail. None of the secession ordinances gives the detail that the Declaration of Independence did.

The Cherokee document does. Arizona's ordinance, albeit a brief list, does. Some of the states, such as Florida, said very little either way other than that they were seceding. Some, such as Texas, give resolutions of principles causing their secession.

Oh really? Please show that Texas was getting less Federal protection than, say, Kansas or Missouri.

Absent a library at the present, I cannot speak for Kansas or Missouri. I can speak for Texas. Washington was well aware of an ongoing problem of Indian attacks on frontier settlements in Texas dating back to annexation. It was one of the reason's Texas sought to be annexed - they hoped the United States could help protect the frontiers. What happened after the Mexican war was a period of off and on assistance dominated frequently by neglect including some intentionally caused by the south-hating radicals in the north. They cut funding off for political reasons back then just like they do today, only back then frontier defense was often a life or death issue. Nevertheless the northern faction of Sumner played political games with it. By 1850 President Fillmore brought attention to the Indian attacks in Texas in what was an equivalent of a state of the union message. The problem emerged repeatedly throughout the decade and, according to the state, had worsened. As of 1860 the Texas' senators and representatives had reported the problem of Indian raids on the frontier repeatedly to the Congress with the complaint that defenses were being denied for strictly political reasons. Such a situation was a violation of the terms on which Texas entered the union, therefore they considered the contract broken.

Uh huh. From a slave-holding perspective, you are right.

No. Strictly speaking on the frontier defense issue itself - Texas entered the union with frontier defenses against Indian raids being among the terms of entry. Those defenses were not being adequitely provided despite Washington's awareness of the problem for the previous decade. Therefore the compact between the Texas and the union was violated. Randomly shouting "slavery" as you do in response to everything southern is shoddy scholarship to say the least.

This argument is totally bogus. When did the North invade Texas prior to the Civil War?

To the contrary. Northern sabre rattling was well known throughout the secession crisis and provided an underlying fuel for the southern secessionist cause. Southerners saw a northern-run government basically telling them "You listen to us now and we can do this the easy way or the hard way." The south saw this for what it was, coercion, and cited it prominently as a cause for secession months before a shot was even fired. Jefferson Davis appealed to peace in the face of a coming war in his January farewell speech. Louis Wigfall had openly called the north on it back in the first week of December. Resolutions of secession, such as that one from Franklin TN in February, saw it as well and cited it as their cause.

Even Lincoln knew what was going on. From December forward he was secretly corresponding with northern commanders to prepare plans for taking the southern forts and reinforcing the ones in union hands. The action that sparked Fort Sumter was one of such plan that had been months in the making.

Going 3 for 3 aren't you? Lincoln and other northerners pledged to *not* interfere with any southern instituions.

Public political pledges are a far cry from actions. Lincoln also publicly stated in February 1861 the following:

"What, then, is ``coercion''? What is ``invasion''? Would the marching of an army into South California, for instance, without the consent of her people, and in hostility against them, be coercion or invasion? I very frankly say, I think it would be invasion, and it would be coercion too, if the people of that country were forced to submit."

The president elect then pledged that his intention was for neither.

He sure didn't live up to that little fib.

214 posted on 08/13/2002 5:14:32 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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