I don't understand how we can know for a fact that the F.B.I. used the little "Prefered Customer" card hanging off your key chain to track certain purchases and go so far as to look people up and question them, and that the Patriot Act has already been used on the WOD, yet are suppose to assume that future abuse is not possible. Or are you saying that such abuse is survivable by a free society? That America is strong enough to snap back from such thing?
He complained about hypothetical government abuse. Yes, I asked him for a specific so that we actually know just what the heck we are all complaining about. Wouldn't that be helpful?
In addition, a large part of his complaint had to do with government restrictions of free speech. My problem with that was not that I disagreed with him but that he seemed to think that restrictions on free speech were something new (ushered in somehow by the Patriot Act, not that the poster explained how, exactly). Restrictions on free speech have been with us for some time, and one example (the one I listed) was the existence of so-called "hate speech" and "hate crimes". Therefore, since the poster seemed concerned about restrictions on free speech, I suggested that he direct his attention to actual examples of free speech restrictions rather than hypothetical ones. I hope you understand a little better now.
I don't understand how we can know for a fact that the F.B.I. used the little "Prefered Customer" card hanging off your key chain to track certain purchases and go so far as to look people up and question them,
They did? That's pretty scary all right. I don't even have a "Prefered Customer" card hanging off my key chain so I don't know how they did this. Nor do I remember being questioned.
Oh I see, you're saying this happened to someone. Ok then, well, who did it happen to? And of course this was very bad, because it violated the right to... uh... which right did it violate again?
Look, I'm all for complaining about the government and keeping a sharp eye on them and stuff. I just don't go in much for fear-mongering and exaggerated horror stories. Whether or not I decide to get Up In Arms about the "Prefered Customer" scandal depends just a little bit on whether the FBI decided to track fertilizer purchases, or whether they just decided that they knew which type of deodorant is preferred by terrorists.... In other words, I need more data before I decide to get Up In Arms, I just do... I know that frustrates some people and I'm sorry, but that's the way I am.
and that the Patriot Act has already been used on the WOD,
The Patriot Act has been used on the WOD? The Patriot Act has been used on the WOD???? Oh horror of horrors! Yes, you guys are right, this is "unprecedented", the Japanese internment camps were nothin' compared to this.
Look, in principle I'm opposed to the "WOD" to begin with. Therefore, my problem with the WOD is the WOD, not the Patriot Act.
yet are suppose to assume that future abuse is not possible.
No, you are not supposed to assume this. In fact, please don't assume this. I never said that "future abuse is not possible". Just that I prefer to talk about specifics. "The Patriot Act was used in the WOD!" is not all that a specific statement.
Or are you saying that such abuse is survivable by a free society?
I think abuse of power is survivable, yes. Call me crazy or just an optimist, but abuse of power has been (and will always be) with us, but I still believe in the resilience of this country and its people.
Again, on occasions where actual (not hypothetical, future) abuse of power is known and exposed, let's throw the book at 'em. But really, I'm still just not sure what you guys are complaining about. "The Patriot Act"? I'll agree that it has a lousy name and I probably wouldn't have signed it. But none of us have actually read it (or have you?) so we're having an almost completely imaginary discussion about something none of us really knows anything about, it seems to me.
I have a hard time using such discussions as a springboard to start panicking, I guess. Maybe this is a mistake on my part, and it really is time to start panicking based on hypothetical worst-case-scenarios. You tell me.
That America is strong enough to snap back from such thing?
What "thing"? You haven't even mentioned what specific "thing" you are complaining about.
Regardless, though, the answer is Yes, absolutely. America is strong enough. If you disagree, that saddens me. But there we are. Best,