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Exactly. Excellent summary.

Randians love to fetishize the 19th Century version of capitalism as the "ideal". Well, first they ignore the fact that the devout Christianity of 19th century America made much of that liberty possible (when people believe God is watching, they don't need much policing), and they also ignore the completly un-Christian behavior of many industrialists that led to what they hate the most: the welfare state. Pictures of children chained to machines or working in coal mines at age 8 will sour people pretty quick on laissez-faire capitalism.

Libertarians aren't very big on reading history. For conservatives, history and Revealed Truth are the gold standard. Ask yourselves, libertarians: why do unions exist? Do you know how difficult it was to get the union movement off the ground? That it took 75 years, hundreds of thousands of people and was opposed at every turn by rich industrialists who paid Pinkerton detectives to bust heads?

Yet it still happened, big time. In the 1950's, 35% of the workforce was union. Why did it happen? Because over a long period of time, industrialists were arrogant and brutal to a hell of a lot of decent people, they didn't share their wealth with the poor (as the Lord commands), they didn't provide worker protections and safety (again, as the Lord commands to be good to your servants), and were in-your-face arrogant about it to boot.

So, guess what. We got the welfare state. I'm no fan of the welfare state, believe me. But it happened precisely because of the pursuit of an idiotic capitalist "ideal".

There is no "ideal" society, no utopia. Not in a fallen world, with fallen people.

"Pictures of children chained to machines or working in coal mines at age 8 will sour people pretty quick on laissez-faire capitalism."

Yeah, right. Like that's going to happen. First off, what coal company would ever be foolish enough to let children work in its mines? Mining today is highly mechanized. But more importantly, what coal company could ever withstand the publicity of children working in its mines? And maybe even more important than that, what parents would allow their 8-year-old children to work in mines?

The idea that *government*...and especially the *federal government...is what's keeping us from reverting to 19th century conditions is nonsense. What keeps us from reverting to 19th century conditions is that we're incredibly more wealthy than the poor devils in the 19th century were.

"Ask yourselves, libertarians: why do unions exist?"

Because conditions stunk in the early 20th century. No, conservative, ask yourself this: why has union membership severely declined, and will likely keep on declining? (Answer: "Because conditions don't stink anymore.")

"But it happened precisely because of the pursuit of an idiotic capitalist 'ideal'."

Capitalism is the most spectacular source for wealth generation ever devised by man. There is a direct and positive correlation between how capitalistic countries are, and how wealthy they are. For example, the median per-capita income in Sweden is now LESS than the median per-capita income of blacks in the United States. (Blacks being one of POOREST of social groups in the U.S.)

Why is India poor, and Taiwan rich (well, compared to India)? In part, it's because India's Constitution states it to be a socialist country.

I want to thank you for your kind words before this thread winds down to its envitable snarling inconclusiveness. I also appreciate your views on societal responsibilities and how that vision is shaped by a deepening understanding of Christ.

I get the feeling that many of the posters here have never experienced poverty or privation, nor have they had loved ones trapped in those abysmal circumstances. I don't think they will ever understand what the real debate is about.

God bless you and your family, and please keep up the good fight.