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To: balrog666
The problem is that they have to be immediately beneficial -tribune7-

I agree that beneficial means beneficial.

But you keep evading the point that if they are not immediately beneficial they will be lost due to the 50% chance of survival at each procreation.

Don't you have any family? Any aunts, uncles, cousins, children? Can't you see specific characteristics survive from one generation to another?

How many times do I have to post how a new mutation dissappears as I have done in post#683 and 749 before you evolutionists will address it? How many posts before you evolutionists stop ignoring it?

The gene is the new function (protein) and it is either beneficial, neutral, or detrimental. No additional regulatory mechanism is necessary at this point.

You really blew it on that one! Let me show you what you need to make one protein Here's the first step:

machinery to start the process

Here's the next step:



Here's the details of how it happens from those rabid right wing creationists at UC Berkeley:

Berkeley scientists have obtained the first good picture of a major chunk of the machinery that turns genes on and off.

With the help of electron microscopy and a relatively new technique called single particle image analysis, the researchers reconstructed a three-dimensional picture of the heart of the machine -- the part that binds to DNA and starts the process of gene transcription.

The picture shows for the first time how the proteins are arranged, and gives clues to the inner workings of the machinery that transcribes genes -- the complex of proteins that latches onto and copies DNA into an RNA blueprint for building proteins.

...

The entire machine that transcribes a gene is composed of perhaps 50 proteins, including RNA polymerase, the enzyme that converts DNA code into RNA code. A crew of transcription factors grabs hold of the DNA just above the gene at a site called the core promoter, while associated activators bind to enhancer regions farther upstream of the gene to rev up transcription.

Working as a tightly knit machine, these proteins transcribe a single gene into messenger RNA. The messenger RNA wends its way out of the nucleus to the factories that produce proteins, where it serves as a blueprint for production of a specific protein.
From: UC Berkeley - First Pictures of Transcription Machine


No one has postulated that duplicate genes are the "engines of evolution" - just one "engine" of many. And not similar function - exactly the same function. Until a mutation occurs in one of the duplicated genes.

The only other alternative is the creation of a completely new gene by random chance. Aside from the problem of getting it to do something as I have shown above, there is the little problem of the almost infinite amount of tries needed to make a new gene. A fairly small gene is some 300 DNA codons long and each codon can contain one of 20 amino acids. The chances of this occurring are 20^300 or one chance divided by a 1 with 120 zeros behind it. It could have happened once or twice in 4 billion years, but not the hundreds of thousands of times necessary for evolution to have produced the millions of different species living today.

Haven't we seen totally new genes come into being in just this way? Yes, we have. Go look at the nylon eating bacteria again for a documented example.

Jeez, you did not even bother to read the article! It clearly states that it was a mutation on an existing gene which took away the ability of the bacteria to eat carbohydrates!

Maybe if you really look at what is going on in science instead of reading the nonsense spewed by Gould, Dawkins and TalkOrigins, you would see that my position is correct.

766 posted on 08/05/2002 8:34:58 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: gore3000
Let me show you what you need to make one protein

The construction "machinery" is already in place for all those other genes. You don't have individual, distinct protein constuction mechanisms for each protein.

You're proved wrong, so go away.

782 posted on 08/06/2002 7:19:30 AM PDT by balrog666
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To: gore3000
It clearly states that it was a mutation on an existing gene which took away the ability of the bacteria to eat carbohydrates!

And added the ability to digest polymers - a new beneficial function. So, why do you keep lying about it?

784 posted on 08/06/2002 7:22:34 AM PDT by balrog666
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To: gore3000
You really blew it on that one! Let me show you what you need to make one protein Here's the first step:

Here’s where you blew it - many, many times.

Morton’s Demon will perhaps never let you will understand this, but one more time for the benefit of anyone else reading this:

Look at the picture, the minimal promoter region is immediately upstream from the start of transcription (the gene). It stands an excellent chance of being copied along with the gene. Therefore, the copy HAS the TATA box, it has the ENHANCERS, it HAS all of the regulatory sequences necessary for it’s expression.

The gene is an EXACT copy of the parental. It is as SIMPLE as that.

Gore35000 keeps playing the same card tricks.

This thread contains plenty of experimental evidence for functional gene duplications.

To summarize, spontaneous gene duplications associated with an increase in RNA levels have been observed thousands of times in all organisms. In addition, *countless* exogenous gene transfection experiments have confirmed that the processing machinery does not discriminate. Gore35000 is WRONG AGAIN.

795 posted on 08/06/2002 10:11:38 AM PDT by RightWingNilla
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