Posted on 07/29/2002 6:35:04 PM PDT by Tribune7
Start by thinking of those avowedly atheist institutions -- a few have obtained power --and consider their attitude towards human life.
I don't think Lenin chose a martyr's death. His carcass was glorified, but he wasn't martyred.
The only such I know of are socialists and communists. And we know about them. Other atheist nations? I don't know of any, so the commies are, perhaps, giving us a biased sample to use for making judgments.
You mean alter-egos like JennyP? They're kind of hard to get rid of...
BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!! You mean as in I'm really JennyP??? ROFL! This one's a doozie...even dumber than "wildly elliptical". Not even close...LOL!
No, Paul did not say this. My interpretation of the passage is that we should seek to do good to them.
I meet many people all day in my work. I try to be kind to each person, but I do not "love" them all except as terrestrial kindred. I reserve "love" for a very, very select few.
There hasn't been that many. Revolutionary France had a strong anti-Christian stain which was a sort of cross between goddess worship and quasi-atheism. The Paris Commune also featured a sort of atheism.
Regardless nations which tilted towards atheism were unpleasant places. As I said earlier, just consider how lame a concept "we are endowed by accident with certain unalienable rights" sounds.
Can you think of anybody who said we should love -- which in this case means wish them well, show them mercy, provide them kindess, treat them as we would like ourselves to be treated etc. -- them? Do yo need a clue?
But I did find this: Martyrs Day So I guess there are atheist martyrs, although these marytrs were martyred by Soviet Communists -- apparently apostate -- and Moslem fundamentalists.
From what I gather, Schroeder is telling us there is much more to those biblical passages. He views the scientific evidence concerning the age of the earth as perfectly valid. Genesis (“6000 years”) cannot be interpreted in a strict literal sense.
My "take" is from a Christian point of view and also uses New Testament Scriptures to examine Genesis --- and thus we differ just a tad on the details. Mine is explained here: Freeper Views on Origins
Most nations, throughout all of history, were unpleasant places. Let's not forget that the American Revolution really did change the world, and made our lives far more pleasant than they would have been otherwise. I submit that it's our revolution, with its principles of equal rights under the law, that has had as much impact on this "valuing life" issue as anything else in history.
And back to my earlier statement that the Greeks and Romans valued their lives, although they weren't Christian, you replied, in 1059, " Well, yes, but they didn't value anybody else's ..." Come now, do you really imagine that Christian nations behave differently? Consider the glory of imperial Spain, from the time of Colombus to the revolutions that swept South America in the early 1800s. For 3 centuries they ruled most of this hemisphere, and God alone knows how many people they slaughtered. I'm not mentioning this to condemn Christianity, but to point out that "valuing life" is not unique to Christians, and de-valuing life is not unique to non-Christians.
As I said earlier, just consider how lame a concept "we are endowed by accident with certain unalienable rights" sounds.
That is lame, as are most strawman-style arguments. What in the world has this to do with anything? I pointed out the valuing life is not unique to Christians, and that even an atheist values his life. I still think this is true.
Right. All past armies were composed of long-time friends, all cities were founded by family groups, and all past societies were built by constraining people solely through coercion. Uh-uh, yeah, I can see how that happened.
Twelve TablesTable IV.
1. A dreadfully deformed child shall be quickly killed.
2. If a father sell his son three times, the son shall be free from his father.
On dad finding daughter with boyfriend
48.5.24 (Ulpian, On Adultery, book 1) (pr.) What the law says, that is, 'if he finds the adulterer in his daughter,' does not seem to be superfluous; for it signifies that the father shall have this power only if he surprises his daughter in the very act of adultery. Labeo also adopts this opinion; and Pomponius [23] says that the man is killed when caught in the very performance of the sexual act. This is what Solon and Dracho mean by "in the act" (en ergôi).(1) It is sufficient for the father for his daughter to be subject to his power at the time when he kills her, although she may not have been at the time when he gave her in marriage; for suppose that she had afterwards come under his power.
Interesting stuff, but way off point. Both of us can dig into the history and laws of other societies and come up with things we find that are good, and things that are repugnant. We can find good and bad people and laws within Christendom, and outside it. (But I'm certainly not saying that all cultures are equally good.) As good as we are now, we still have a load of idiotic and destructive laws right here in the US. But the original point, and the only one that brought me into this mini-thread, was whether the atheist could have a love of his own life, and the lives of others. I never claimed that all atheists are wonderful people; we are well aware of some ghastly examples to the contrary. I just think that what Piltdown_Woman said seems sensible to me -- and I don't think that atheism is automatically an anti-life system of thought. I think I made my point, and we probably agree on it. We also agree that our own society is superior to any other, so we can both be happy with our conclusions.
And I'm not disagreeing with you or Piltdown. My point is that culture has a huge influence on attitudes. Our culture is Christian -- although much regression has been occurred during the last 40 years to make it more Roman.
You have people in this country who might declare themselves atheist because of a particulary bad experience with a church -- which I don't think is infrequent. But they still accept the values of a Christian society.
On the other hand if we institutionalize atheism, or paganism or anything expressly anti-JudeoChristian -- which I think is the agenda for some in this country -- you will end up with a hell on earth.
Agreed with respect to the influence of culture; but I don't know what you mean about the Roman part. We are now less explicitly Christian, but there was always more to our culture than that -- we've been influenced by the civilizations of Greece and Rome, plus the development of the scientific method, free enterprise, constitutional government, etc.
On the other hand if we institutionalize atheism, or paganism or anything expressly anti-JudeoChristian -- which I think is the agenda for some in this country -- you will end up with a hell on earth.
Not likely to happen. We can't "institutionalize" any sect as long as we have the 1st Amendment.
The founding fathers I believe...
were interested in wealth--character--virtue---
not SCHLOCKOLOGY/ideology(mantras--race/gender/class/PHILOSOPHY rhetoric) ---
hedonism/heresy via SCHLOCKOLOGISTS/quacks/whacks---social engineers(liberals/evolutionists/atheists)!
I'm whacking 'religion'...atheism---LIBERALISM!
The founding fathers I believe...
were interested in wealth--character--virtue---
not SCHLOCKOLOGY/ideology(mantras--race/gender/class/PHILOSOPHY rhetoric) ---
hedonism/heresy via SCHLOCKOLOGISTS/quacks/whacks---social engineers(liberals/evolutionists/atheists)!
I'm whacking DNC-'religion'...EVOLUTION(mad commic book science)---atheism---LIBERALISM---devilcRATS!
‘The truth will set you free.’ (John 8:32)
"God's dismissal in the 19th century, and the humiliation of truth in the 2oth, was supposed to set the world free."
"The experiment has been under way for some time now, and it is fair to ask, what are the... results---so far?"
"The Nazi experience in Germany provides a case study. There, a government and a society were organized on the principle of God's non-existence. Did liberation come to pass? On the wall of one of the death camps there is a plaque. It preserves the language of one of Hitler's speeches. The plaque overlooks large mounds of human hair, piles of personal effects; shoes, spectacles. The plaque reads: "I freed Germany from the degrading fallacy of conscience and morality. We will train people capable of violence-imperious, relentless, cruel. . ."
"Those sentiments were nurtured on the same continent that gave the world the reformation. Which was more liberating? If someone came today and said: "I am the truth," we would not take him seriously. But when Jesus says it, we are tempted to let him get away with it. If he is mad, it is a beautiful madness; such an attractive insanity. Let us not be ashamed to offer Christ to the world."
‘The truth will set you free.’ (John 8:32)
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