Posted on 07/28/2002 11:27:31 AM PDT by Lessismore
In a move that has taken the market by complete surprise, the government is understood to have, over the past week or so, issued urgent requests for proposals (RFPs) for new single-seat multi-role combat aircraft, according to informed industry sources.
Some 125 or more aircraft are reportedly being sought for the new requirement to replace that number of ageing MiG-21s from around 350 still remaining in service in Indian Air Force (IAF).
According to sources, these include the last-production MiG-21 bis series, which are scheduled for major avionics upgrades by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), in conjunction with Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG (RSK MiG).
After three years, however, upgrades of only four MiG-21 bis have so far been completed, and the IAF has continued to lose one or more per month of its older ‘Fishbeds’ over the past decade in accidents totalling over 200 in all.
Although a second technology demonstrator of India’s new Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) was also test flown earlier this year, it is apparently now regarded more as a long-term research project rather than a prospective weapons system.
Deliveries of the first few Sukhoi Su-30MKI two-seat long-range multi-role fighters, for which the IAF has placed orders for 32, plus licensed production of 140 ‘costing in all some $7.8 billion’ also started earlier this month. However, these still require integration of their multi-national missions systems avionics to be completed.
The IAF has therefore felt compelled to seek additional combat aircraft, for early delivery. The new IAF RFPs are understood to have been sent to Dassault: for the Mirage 2000-5; Gripen International for the JAS 39C; Sukhoi: for the Su-35; and MiG: for the new MiG-29M2, with requirements for early selection and delivery.
Meanwhile, the IAF is still negotiating the final cost for the 66 Advanced Jet Trainers from BAE, ‘Hawk’.
The Public Accounts Committee report on Defence, in its report, has asserted that the IAF has lost 221 MiGs in the decade 1991-2000. It has put forth that the entire MiG-21 fleet should be replaced.
I wish them luck.
Let me explain the reason why to you. First of all the SU-30 MKI India is in the process of buying from Russia are not 'junk.' They are some of the most potent aircraft in the world with considerable combat efficacy. They are maneuvrable, can carry highly effective ordnance, and have an amazing combat radius even without external tanks. Furthermore India has an agreement with Russia to coat some of them with a radar absorbment material coating to reduce their radar signature by around 70%.
And with a competent pilot and the full technology and weapons it can stand up to a lot of planes out there (apart from avant-garde jets like the F-22 Raptor which are a generation above the Su-30MKI).
Actually here ( http://www.flightjournal.com/articles/su27/su27.asp ) is a link to a site in Flight magazine where an American R-Admiral was saying maybe the US navy should buy several SU-33s to replace the F/A-18E/F Superhornets until the JSF comes into being. I think the best thing is to copy and paste the link if it is not direct. The article was in Flight Magazine and was written by Adm. Paul Gillcrist and the ex-VP of Advanced Programs at Grumman (they made the F-14) Bob Kress. Essentially 'Americanizing' SU-33s to take over the role of the F-14 Tomcat that was cancelled in favor of the F/A-18 (and in essence it says the F-18 cannot fill the shoes of the F-14, but that the SU-33 can). Thus it is not junk.
And i know someone will post a photo of the crash yesterday of a SU-27 and claim it is a sign the jet is 'junk,' but all i have to say sh!# happens, especially when the safety buffers of foreign airshows are not as stringent as in the US (eg they let jets fly very low over crowds over there).
Now for the second reason why they would chose the Sukhoi over the F-16. Pakistan is the reason!
The US sold some F-16s to Pakistan some years ago (we refused to deliver some of them, but several had already been delivered some time before). The catch is that these Falcons were 'dumbed' down ...they were what is referred to as 'monkey-model' versions since they lack any modern technology, dampened avionics, archac targetting systems, and lousy weapon payloads. For example when it comes to weapons the Pakistani F-16s can only shoot infra-red Aim-9 SideWinders, with a range of only a few miles and no beyond visual range capability.
In comparison the Flankers (SU-30MKIs) being bought by India have modernized avionics and weapons that can shoot down Pakistani jets while they are still in Pakistani airspace! And Russia plans to sell to India jets that are actually quite enhanced unlike the Dummy version F-16s sold to Pakistan.
Now the question is this: If the US was going to sell India F-16s that had the same technological and combative capacity as the ones used by the USAF (or Israeli airforce for that matter) then India might have decided to pick up the F-16s. However chances are the US would not sell advanced technologies to just any country and thus India might not get what i refer to as 'real' F-16s but instead may receive silly jets that look like F-16s (for those who know Falcons they would get F-16As) that can only fire Side Winders!
Given that choice i would rather take a SU-30MKI that can fire weapons witht he ability to take out a target 70 miles away and is ranked as one of the premier air-superiority fighters by several Western agencies like Janes Defense Group.
Anyway have a look at that article written by the Admiral and see what i mean.
I would not call the SU-27/30/33/35 'junk' and i would not buy F-16s if they were the same as the ones sold to Pakistan. Now if we were talking about the ones sold to Israel, or the ones used by the USAF that would be a completely different story since those Falcons are killers! However comparing Indian SU-30 MKIs with PAKISTANI F-16As is ludicrous because if the two nations went to war the Indians SUs would probably destroy all the Pakistani Falcons before the F-16s even left Pakistani airspace. It would be a slaughter!
Flight shape profile...over the horizon ability..and Electronic warfare ability determine who will live and who will die.
Missiles...hypervelocity..exist now...the age of dog fighting is passing.
In 1982 during operation Peace for Galilee..the IAF routed the Syrian airforce to the tune of 80- zero.
In one instance..Syrian Migs were flying in formation chatting amongst themselves.
The IAF was not on their radars..but the Syrians were on the IAF's.
The Israeli's set the seek signature on their missile targeting to the frequency of the radio circuit the Syrians were chatting.
The Syrians were blown from the sky all at once..and never knew what hit them.
The Russian aircraft available now have unique flight characteristics abilites..and can carry sizable ordinance.
Yet...they must be able to locate and engage over the horizon..or they are quite useless against some nations airforces.
Aircraft can be detected instantly by satillite now....they are engaged by a aircraft vectored to them..with real time uplink data..the jet fires a hypervelocity missile which the other cannot out run....some can only be defeated by certain electronic jamming.
I would take an Israeli F-16 over any Soviet jet...its not the airframe or the thrust engines..its the radar/sat-uplink..and missile system.
Yes a Indian airforce Mig 29 or SU-30 would certainly have a distinct advantage on a Pakistani F-16.
I guess sometime in the near future we will get to see how the newer Soviet Jets fare against U.S. aircraft,or Israeli
I think the battles will be determined by who has better satillite uplink.
That is so true .......so very true!
Air battles are won by those who have information grids that allow military assets in the air and on the ground to correspond with each other in realtime, and to launch strike options at any opposing force.
That is the reason nothing can stand up to the USAF currently and in the future. With things like AWACS slaved to F-15s any enemy aircraft is bound to become a flaming ball of flame in seconds flat. And with the future introduction of the F-22 Raptor this advantage will only be enhanced ensuring American air domination for decades to come (since the Raptor will possess a formidable communication grid linking up several fighters into a cohesive combat unit).
Thus no matter how maneuvrable and effective Russian aircraft like the SU-33MKI and the advanced MIG-29M2 are they would still be fodder for 15 year old USAF F-15s with help from AWACS! Information and communicationt echnology is the key here. Which is why we swatted those Iraqi Mig-29 Fulcrums from the sky like they were flies!
However in India versus Pakistan the Indian SU-30MKIs have better capabilties than the Pakistani F-16As, plus possess a better communication, radar, and weapon payload than the Pakistani Falcons. If a war broke out between the two it would be a slaughter (and myopic individuals could say it 'shows' Russian Sukhis are better than F-16s when the ACTUAL fact is that the win was due to the SU-30s having all their combat ability and efficient radar while the F-16As sold to Pakistan had most of their high tech removed before being handed over by the US to Pakistan).
In essence the thing that makes the USAF win aerial battles is a mix of great aircraft, efficient pilot training, sheer numbers, PLUS the proliferation of communication and tactical targeting capabilities that allow an AWACS to tell an USAF F-16 (obviously not the Pakistani model) where to fire its Sparrow long before the firing aircraft has even acquired the target.
In the coming decades information will have the ability to kill the enemy, literally!
From first strike tactical in Nuclear theatre warfare..to battlegroup disruption..Air,Land and Sea.
Here the Russians do play..and should not be taken lightly.
Unless hardened...complex computer suites go quickly into stupid mode.
Tom Clancy has written some good stuff in this area...I'm sure he's heard wispers from corridors deep inside places we never will get..and hints to us of what could happen should Russian and U.S. technology square off on a large scale.
Both countries probably desire to keep their cards close to their chests ...open testing can be detected by satillite.
Both probably game out on computer..but one day EMP phasing will appear on a battlefield somewhere.
It has been hinted that Israel plans to go this route should Egypt feild her M1A1 Abrams and mobile MLRS's.
Simply shut them off.
Russia has some smart engineers and designers...being left behind does tend to drive creativity and imagination to catch up.
As for the tech being sold by Russia and Israel to rogue states i would also put the likelihood low! Even though Russia seems willing to sell certain tech to Iran, and Israel has been trying to sell some advanced radar systems to China (and even sold them Python 3s last year and according to Janes Groups the Chinese J-10 is derived from work done on the Lavi US/Israeli jet cancelled in '87 but sold to China by dubious Israeli sources) i would still not list this as a threat. For example the only country Russia sells really advanced equipment to is India. For all other nations the equipment is 'dumbed' down, for example the Mig-29s that Iraq acquired in the 80s. They are similar to the hopeless F-16As the we sold to Pakistan with dumbed down systems.
Same thing applies to Israel. Even though they sold China Python 3s the Israelis still possess the best ASRAAM in the world ...the Python 4. In essence if you sell someone a stick always make sure you have a BIGGER stick.
Thus the risk of US versus TOP Russian or US versus ADVANCED Israel is really low. And the US attacking Moscow or vice-versa is even lower since in my opinion Russia will be our greatest ally next to England (with Russia taking over the spots of nations like France).
The only problem i see is China's purchase of Russian Sunburns or the Shkval-2 rocket torpedo for use against US aircraft carriers. Otherwise the risk of US versus TOP Russian is really nothing to worry about ...even in the EMP field.
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