FormerLurker has been repeatedly asked to provide the readers with his own self contained complete and tidy sequential timeline of the events surrounding the Flight 800 disaster for their comparison with the following - if or when he and
Swordmaker reach an agreement on their differing opinions.
The timeline and location of the major events of the disaster was approximately as follows:
8:31:11 Intact and climbing 747 approaches 13,800 feet.
8:31:12 Initiating Event at 13,800 feet followed immediately by the commencement of the decapitation process.
8:31:43-8:31:47 Streak of light appears.
8:31:47 Explosion of Massive Fireball at 5500-7500 feet.
8:31:55-8:31:57 Splashdown of the Massive Fireball flames.
Source.
FormerLurker says: "The point at which ONE of the wings came off (notably the left wing) was at around 21:31:34:97" - which translates for comparison purposes to appropximately 8:31:35 - approximately 23 seconds after the IE.
FormerLurker also says: "As the massive fireball apparently occured at ~20:31:35 as that is where the left wing came off the plane, the altitude at that point should be around 3500 feet" - which translates for comparison purposes to approximately 8:31:35 - still approximately 23 seconds after the IE.
The MF "apparently occurred" at 8:31:35 at 3500 feet? It doesn't appear to have been "apparent" to the airborne witnesses.
It seems reasonable to assume the thousands of gallons of jet fuel in the left wing tanks began gushing out into the sky when that wing tore away from the fuselage and it's obvious that huge amount of jet fuel was the source of the Massive Fireball explosion.
But FormerLurker appears to be alleging that the Massive Fireball explosion was simultaneous - 8:31:35 - and at the same altitude - 3500 feet - as the detachment of the left wing from the fuselage.
Did witness McClaine see the Massive Fireball explosion at 8:31:35 - 23 seconds after the IE? His radio report of the MF to Air Traffic Control was timestamped at 8:31:50 - approximately 38 seconds after the IE. His reaction time to get on the radio was reportedly approximately 3 seconds which would put the time of the Massive Fireball explosion at approximately 8:31:47 - approximately 35 seconds after the IE.
Yet, FormerLurker appears to be alleging that McClaine's reaction time to get on the radio was 15 seconds. And, since McClaine's radio report of the MF was the first radio report of it, that all the rest of the airborne witnesses of the Massive Fireball explosion took even longer than 15 seconds to get on their radios.
And in view of the fact that McClaine's radio report of the MF was also the first radio report of ANYTHING unusual in the sky, where will the appearance of the streak of light be inserted in FormerLurker's own sequential timeline of events and what supporting evidence for that will he include for the readers?
And how will FormerLurker explain the contentions of ten metallurgists - four from the NTSB, three from Boeing, two from the FBI and one scientist consultant - that they found no evidence in the wreckage that TWA 800 was the victim of a missile or bomb?
Source.
FormerLurker has been repeatedly asked to provide the readers with his own self contained complete and tidy sequential timeline of the events surrounding the Flight 800 disaster for their comparison with the following - if or when he and Swordmaker reach an agreement on their differing opinions. You see Asmodeus, NOBODY knows for sure what happened at exactly what time. Although witness statements DO in fact relate what appears to be one or more missiles in flight which caught up to TWA 800 and detonated, the TIMES that those observations were made are mostly subjective and inaccurate.
Perceptions of time vary drastically when observing a event under stress or when viewing something extraordinary. If someone had videotaped the entire sequence of events, we might have a more accurate picture of what happened in relation to time. The best video that has been put together in relation to witness accounts can be seen by clicking below;
Recreation of witnesses Gipe and Angelides view of the crash
Witness positions also need to be taken into account in relation to what they observed. You have made no effort to understand that factor Asmodeus. Commander Donaldson, the distinguised Naval officer that you continually disparage in your offhand remarks, HAS performed said analysis on the other hand. In fact, he has put together a chart that indicates where each major witness was in relation to the event.
Click on the image for the .PDF chart
As I said, the best record of what happened and when would be if we had a videotape of the incident with a properly calibrated digital clock to indicate the exact time in relation to the events. As far as I know, there is no such videotape.
HOWEVER, we DO have a radar graph that plots the position of TWA 800 at precise times, in addition to the debris field which indicates where the pieces of the plane came down. THIS is THE best data that we have in relation to time. That is why is is so important to consider ALL of the factors involved in what we can see from that data. And THAT is why Swordmaker and I are still discussing the data and the factors that came into play while the events unfolded. And THAT is why I have no firm timeline as of yet, although we CAN see certain things that are and aren't possible from the analysis we've performed up to now.
On the other hand, you pull numbers out of the air that have no bearing in fact, where you contradict your OWN sources that you provide on your webpage. I've already shown where those inconsistencies are in post #636, although I mistakingly attributed your source as James Kalstrom, whereas apparently your source is a CIA letter TO James Kalstrom. I had later admitted to said error, but the fact still remains that your timeline conflicts with your own sources.
8:31:11 Intact and climbing 747 approaches 13,800 feet.
8:31:12 Initiating Event at 13,800 feet followed immediately by the commencement of the decapitation process.
Exactly where do you come up with this "immediate commencement of the decapitation process"? The NTSB itself has stated that the nose appears to have separated at around 20:31:16, which is 4 seconds AFTER the original initiating event. But hey, you might be right as the witnesses DO state that the TWO high velocity detonations appear to have occured in rapid succession, so perhaps the nose DID separate sooner than the NTSB claims..
8:31:43-8:31:47 Streak of light appears.
Now WHERE exactly are you pulling THAT figure from? The streak of light appeared BEFORE the TWO detonations, and BEFORE the FIRST fireball seen by witnesses. THAT fireball more than likely was the CWT igniting resulting in what was perceived as a fireball. This "fireball" however fell at the same rate as TWA800, as it was caused by flaming fuel which had escaped from the CWT and sprayed all over the plane. So TWA800 itself was on fire and falling.
8:31:47 Explosion of Massive Fireball at 5500-7500 feet.
This again is in conflict with the source that you continuously refer to. At 20:31:47, TWA800 was at most 8 seconds away from impact, and probably closer to 4 or 5 seconds by observing the radar returns.
Even IF it took 8 seconds to impact the ocean from 20:31:47, AND with a high terminal velocity of say 500 feet/sec, TWA 800 would have been less than 5500 feet if we calculate the altitude using those figures;
height = 500 * 8 = 4000 feet
HOWEVER, once TWA800 lost its left wing, it more than likely became aerodynamically unstable and fell apart. This would result in rapid deceleration due to air friction, so the terminal velocity at that point was probably closer to 325 feet/sec for the main body of the aircraft. This would result in a even lower altitude for the aircraft at 20:31:47;
height = 325 * 8 = 2600 feet
So you see, you have to take ALL of the factors into account to come up with a proper estimate of where it was and when...
Using a terminal velocity of 325, we can see how high TWA800 would have been at around the time the left wing came off;
t = 20:31:35 - 20:31:55 = 20 sec height = 325 * 20 = 6500 feet
Hmm, now that IS over 5500 feet and less than 7500 feet. That MIGHT just be a good estimate of how high TWA800 was at that time. And that IS where the left wing apparently came off which would have resulted in the SECOND fireball, this one being MASSIVE due to the amount of fuel which would have ignited from the wing tanks.
8:31:55-8:31:57 Splashdown of the Massive Fireball flames.
Sorry, but is obvious by looking at the radar returns and location of the main body of the aircraft in the debris field that it impacted between 20:31:50 and 20:31:55.
The MF "apparently occurred" at 8:31:35 at 3500 feet? It doesn't appear to have been "apparent" to the airborne witnesses.
Well it isn't apparent that your chart says much to contradict that figure either, as some of the witnesses estimated the altitude to be between anything from 3000 to 8000 feet. And as I stated above, with a terminal velocity of 325 feet/sec instead of 450 feet/sec, the altitude at that point could be as high as 6500 feet rather than 3500 feet. Without any altitude data, we can only give our best estimates, which may in fact be a range of values.
So one could say that using the available data, TWA800 lost its left wing at approximately 20:31:35. It was at an altitude of approximately 3500-6500 feet, and at the moment the left wing separated from the aircraft, the fuel from the wing tank ignited into a massive fireball.
Yet, FormerLurker appears to be alleging that McClaine's reaction time to get on the radio was 15 seconds. And, since McClaine's radio report of the MF was the first radio report of it, that all the rest of the airborne witnesses of the Massive Fireball explosion took even longer than 15 seconds to get on their radios.
Again, you are relying on times that may or may not be accurate, as there is no mention of whether the clock you mention was in fact calibrated to the same exact time as that indicated by the Islip radar returns. There may be a substantial discrepency, and you demonstrate no evidence indicating that the clocks were in fact calibrated to the same exact time.
Even if they were close, it would still be a matter of subjective perception, whereas the radar returns are not subject to such uncertainty, as those times were actually recorded in relation to the position of the aircraft.
And how will FormerLurker explain the contentions of ten metallurgists - four from the NTSB, three from Boeing, two from the FBI and one scientist consultant - that they found no evidence in the wreckage that TWA 800 was the victim of a missile or bomb?
In relation to our current discussion, those things haven't anything to do with the timeline. If you DO want to read something concerning reports from metallurgists, why don't you read the report from International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers;
NTSB FLUFFS IT AGAIN
The "Airborne Witness Matrix" posted here by Asmodeus, along with being obfuscative and incomplete is also patently WRONG.
V. AIRBORNE WITNESS MATRIX
"There were several airborne witnesses. Their observations are recorded on the chart below. Except for summaries 070-29,30, and 52, which was the Air National Guard helicopter crew, no airborne witness observed streaks."
You will notice in the NTSB's published document the DUPLICATION of the description...
"STREAK EAST TO WEST"
This duplication is flatly WRONG.
Chris Baur reported a "streak" from WEST to EAST, while Fred Mayer reported a "streak" from EAST to WEST.
"Almost due south [of the helicopter], there was a hard white light, like burning pyrotechnics, in level flight," Capt. Chris Baur told investigators. "I was trying to figure out what it was. .. It struck an object coming from the right and made it explode." ..... Two NY Air National Guard pilots with the best view of the crash of TWA 800 ....... one believes the airliner was struck by a fast-moving object coming from the east, while the other saw a fiery trail from the west....