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To: general_re
The USSC has no power to 'ram' any rights down throats . States can, and should, fight their case, and if an obviously unconstitutional decision is made against them, use civil disobedience methods to force the issue.

That's been tried before. It generally doesn't work out well for the states that attempt it.

No, I don't think it has, primarily because these states have no real basis to violate individual rights, and acknowlege that fact in their political decisions. - IE, they can't get voting citizens to support laws that violate rights.

The problem is that if the scope of the Ninth Amendment is potentially radically expanded by the 14'th, the Tenth is radically curtailed by it. There are lots of powers the states no longer have by virtue of the 14'th Amendment,

They never have had the power to violate individual rights.

chief among them the fact that they no longer have (virtually) any powers that restrict an individual's rights under the Bill of Rights.

Exactly! -- Why do you think a state SHOULD have such powers? Our constitution was formed 'to secure the blessings of liberty', -- and life, and property.

You disagree with some of the personal freedoms guaranteed by the 14th, so you wish to blame the constitutional process it outlines.
- There is nothing 'wrong' with the 14th, or the constitution.
- While most 'everything' is wrong with our political processes.

126 posted on 07/23/2002 12:01:43 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine
No, I don't think it has, primarily because these states have no real basis to violate individual rights, and acknowlege that fact in their political decisions. - IE, they can't get voting citizens to support laws that violate rights.

Really? Anyone remember Little Rock? Brown v. Board? How successful was Orval Faubus when it came to defying the federal government? For that matter, how successful was Jefferson Davis?

They never have had the power to violate individual rights.

The states? How applicable was the Sixth Amendment right to counsel before the 14'th Amendment and Gideon? If a person has a right to counsel, but is denied that by the state, surely that right is being violated, isn't it?

Exactly! -- Why do you think a state SHOULD have such powers?

What makes you think that I DO think that? ;)

You disagree with some of the personal freedoms guaranteed by the 14th, so you wish to blame the constitutional process it outlines.

I do? I didn't think so. I merely point out that if the 9'th is revived, there is a significant danger that it will be abused by activist judges, under the auspices of incorporation via the 14'th. There's nothing wrong with either amendment in isolation, IMO, but when you put the two together, it becomes a very powerful and very dangerous way for people with a particular agenda to impose their values on the nation as a whole.

128 posted on 07/23/2002 12:21:11 PM PDT by general_re
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