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Reasoned opinion only, please. All name-callers please proceed to the nearest CREVO thread.
1 posted on 07/22/2002 4:31:38 PM PDT by dubyagee
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To: dubyagee
Bump for later.
141 posted on 07/22/2002 6:22:00 PM PDT by Springman
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To: dubyagee
Okay, I'll bite.

I think it's important to understand that Rand was influenced by the German philosopher, Nietzsche. Granted, Rand's "political philosophy" was certainly not as deep, nor as influential, but it's widely accepted that she was influenced by him. There are important differences, of course, but there are certain key elements that are important.

One of those elements concerns Rand's critique of religion and so-called altruistic morality. Selfishness, in this view, is not evil, but only as good or bad as the selfish individual. And as for altruism? It doesn't exist. As Nietzsche said, "there are no selfless acts" at all!"

Why? Because the altruist is motivated by fear and by the need for others to think well of him. His vanity knows no bounds. He imagines himself as suffering along with those he wishes to help (he is motivated by fear), and he buys himself a good reputation with his fellows and flatters his vanity by his alleged "selfless" acts. Altruism is just as brutally selfish as anything else, but as a form of morality it is far less honest.

Of course, in Rand's view the altruist does not decrease suffering. On the contrary, the altruist increases suffering and misery, and he robs individuals of their humanity by placing the blame for their suffering on those who are not responsible. The altruist is shameless, has no respect for the tragic, is far more vain than most can imagine.

I have to say that after decades of altruistic government the results speak for themselves.

152 posted on 07/22/2002 6:28:34 PM PDT by Reactionary
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To: dubyagee
If a soul can exist, so too, can God.

I didn't see anyone else point this out to you, if they have, please forgive the redundancy.

For Ayn Rand, man's soul is his consciousness, particularly that consciousness unique to man, the rational/volitional consciousness, the conscious ability to think and choose.

If you attempt to make the word soul mean anything more than this in Ayn Rand's mouth (or pen), you have misinterpreted her.

(I will gladly provide quotes from her writings to substantiate this, if you like. Most people familiar with Ayn Rand are quite familiar with her position on this.)

Hank

154 posted on 07/22/2002 6:28:55 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: dubyagee
Secondly, for someone who professes any form of supernaturalism as contrary to reason, Ayn Rand repeatedly refers to the ugly side of man as “evil.” Rand obviously believes that evil does exist. But if man is only truly alive and good when he is true to himself and his virtue, how can evil exist? Where did it come from? How could this good and wonderful being called man, distort and pervert good to the point that it became evil? What is the source of this evil? Religion, Rand might say. But why would this marvelously intelligent creature pervert what he knows to be true for the sake of destroying his species? In the words of Francisco D’Anconia (I love this character, btw), “Contradictions cannot exist.” Good and evil contradict one another. The presence of both in this world is clearly a contradiction. Reason tells me that there must be a source from which each came. My reason tells me that each is trying to destroy the other, knowing that the two cannot exist indefinitely together.

This is a great mistake, both about Ayn Rand's view, and about the nature of evil.

I Quote from The Autonomist, "Introduction to Autonomy."

"All values are based on the good. There is only good. This statement must be understood in the following context: in reality, as an actuality, there is only good. There can be more good and less good, and there can be things that increase the good, and there can be things that diminish it. Now what we call evil is really less good or that which diminishes the good. Without good, however, there can be no evil. Sickness is evil, but there could be no sickness if there were not health. If there were not life there could be no death. Poverty is evil, but there could be no poverty if there were no wealth.

"This does not mean that there is not evil, or that it is not real. It means that evil is not a positive, and exists only as a negation of the good, and, therefore, can never exceed good. It means that evil cannot exist on its own, but only where there is good. Anything that limits, diminishes, or threatens good is evil, and its embodiment in people, movements, teachings, acts, and governments are rightly called evil."

Hank

161 posted on 07/22/2002 6:39:41 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: dubyagee
Nice job. There are problems with O-ism, at least as told by Rand... but it still beats, hands down anything offered as philosophy from any other source.

I'll take your points in order.

First, Rand makes the mistake of lumping all believers in with “looters.” Were this the case, there would be no believers here at FR decrying big government or taking offense at the fact that the government wants our paychecks each month.

A lot of 'believers' are statists. Many are Nazis/Facists/Socialists. You'll find VERY few GOPers who decry taxation as immoral. Let them come on this thread and denounce taxation as theft.
Your mistake is that you are not in the 'group' you think you are (GOP), or you are assigning value(s) to the GOP that it does not have.

But if man is only truly alive and good when he is true to himself and his virtue, how can evil exist?
Because man is often not true to himself and virtue. It's a lot easier not to be.

Good and evil contradict one another.
False premise. Evil is the abscence of good.

Third, Rand does not believe that men are made up of nothing more than chemical reactions, but that they have a soul.
Although I agree with you, that Rand's statements that God does not exist are irrational, I'd need evidence that she ever said man has a soul.

Now, if you would humor me for a moment, imagine the execution of a man named Jesus, who comes to this world He created, in a desire to save it from destruction by “looters.”
This is a very interesting, and worthy point that I have not seen made before.
It is often said by those who belittle the intellectual capabilities of Christians, that the bible is full of contradictions

It is. But you're making another mistake. The Bible does not prove the existance of God. I don't believe the Bible is the word of God, but I believe in God. And Natural Order is one method of His proof. I have others, but they are personal.
Rand's mistake was trying to DISPROVE something by lack of evidence. I guarantee there is life somewhere in the Universe, besides Man. But I can't prove it. By her 'logic', it would be morally safe to nuke every planet without visiting it.

If, for the sake of argument, God does indeed exist, Rand has brought herself down to the level of the evil “looters.” Her greatest contradiction is her refusal to acknowledge the possibility that God does exist, thereby offering him no acknowledgement and no gratitude for that which she worshipped above all…a great Mind

Nice wrap up, bringing it all together.
One could also add what I did above. She has precluded a possibility without evidence.
At best she could say God 'could' exist.
It's not as if we're trying to disprove the Easter Bunny.

My reason tells me that greatness must come from that which is greater

Your reason is faulty. Greatness is a man-created concept. Created in our languages/thought processes. It could be possible for an alien society to exist that has no idea about 'greatness'.

I've actually been thinking of posting something similar, but never got the time. Glad you did.

204 posted on 07/22/2002 8:24:48 PM PDT by DAnconia55
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To: dubyagee
Love Rand's works, and "Atlas Shrugged" remains one of my favorite books.

But I never found her rejection of religion to be backed by compelling arguments, and specifically regarding "A.S.", I found that Galt's Gulch was more than a bit utopian and not fitting in with the logical and accurate depiction of the way collectivism works in the real world.

234 posted on 07/23/2002 8:18:20 AM PDT by Dales
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To: dubyagee
It is foolish to believe that we are an accident. One has to discount time-tested laws of science and accept mathematical odds of 10^40,000 for just the proper spontaneous gathering of proteins.

The 10^40000 comes from astro-physicist Fred Hoyle but responsible mathematical evidence for the extreme unlikelihood of atheism goes back to at least the 1960s: Check Wistar Institute Symposium

Atheism is irrational. It is a world-view based on unthinking emoition.

237 posted on 07/23/2002 8:46:58 AM PDT by Tribune7
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To: dubyagee
"First, Rand makes the mistake of lumping all believers in with “looters.”"

I admire your effort to read this book coming from a Christian perspective, but your first sentence is in error. Although she probably didn't present any believers in a positive light in that book, there's no evidence that she considered them all to be looters. She never said such a thing. With all due respect, that comes from your imagination.

The understanding behind the next several sentences of your criticism is tangled. Sorry, but I'm not able to help at this time. One can't understand Objectivism by reading Atlas Shrugged. I don't defend everything about objectivism, and certainly not about Rand, but if you want to understand Objectivism, the 200 page "The Virtues of Selfishness" is where it's explained.

239 posted on 07/23/2002 9:01:07 AM PDT by elfman2
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To: dubyagee
There exist many contradictions within religion. One can then conclude that religion is not reality as Rand did. Or one can conclude that an underlying reality exists which resolves the contradictions. The reality may be beyond the comprehension of man.
259 posted on 07/23/2002 11:15:21 AM PDT by Pentagram
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To: dubyagee
Very thought provoking analysis of "Atlas Shrugged".
323 posted on 07/23/2002 6:47:53 PM PDT by CWRWinger
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To: dubyagee
My main criticism of "Atlas Shrugged" is Rand's idea of love. She seems to idealize a first sexual encounter, unmarried, with the "perfect man", and then later settle down with Mr Right. In this case, Hank is conveniently in a loveless marriage, which seems to justify their tryst.

I do get a chuckle out of her anti-mysticism rants - they seem to sweep away most of the 60's drivel that so drives a lot of of the liberal cyclical reasoning of today.

330 posted on 07/23/2002 7:33:04 PM PDT by lds23
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To: dubyagee; DAnconia55
PS: - A few weeks ago, I stumbled on the website for earning scholarships based on essays on some of Rand's works. Check out the winning "Atlas Shrugged" essay from last year. Also, if you poke around, you'll find some other interesting stuff, including the writings other essay contest winners.

It kind of gives you hope for the next generation.....

332 posted on 07/23/2002 7:45:51 PM PDT by lds23
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To: dubyagee
The last thing that I am doing when I choose to believe in God is abandoning my reason

Actually, I'm thinking just the opposite. Reason must BRING me to God. A good little book for starters is: "The Reason Why"
345 posted on 07/23/2002 9:43:45 PM PDT by stylin19a
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To: dubyagee
Atlas Shrugged-Contradictions Where None Can Exist

Contradictions, schmontradictions!

Among other things, I categorically disagree with Ayn Rand's atheism as well, but it's quite refreshing to recognize that there is still plenty of common ground to be found between patriotic atheists and patriotic Christians, both of whom ardently believe in Liberty, privacy, conservative economics, minimally intrusive government, and so on.

I, for one, bemoan the frequent antagonism between these groups, because, to my mind, there is much more that we hold in common than there is to divide us.

353 posted on 08/28/2012 6:45:33 PM PDT by sargon
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