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Freeper Views on Origins
Alamo-Girl | 7/16/2002 | Alamo-Girl

Posted on 07/16/2002 9:33:12 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl

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To: LeeMcCoy
Thank you so very much for the definitions and for your encouragements and for sharing your view!!!
21 posted on 07/16/2002 10:14:19 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Orblivion
I don't have time to refute all of it, but the guy who wrote this made many errors... I'll take an easy one as an example; the story of Elisha... The Talmud explains it as follows: There was a shortage of drinkable water in the area. The youths procured water and were gouging outrageous rates... Elisha prayed to G-d, who cleansed the undrinkable water. The youths than scoffed at him, and they were eaten up.

The Talmud states in another place that Elisha over-reacted, and was punished. However, it is a Biblical commandment to follow the sages, and Elisha was the foremost prophet at the time, so they youths did deserve it.

I just wanted to point out an example of the "scholarship" of this essay...

Ari

22 posted on 07/16/2002 10:14:52 PM PDT by Krafty123
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To: Alamo-Girl
You're going to get flamed :-)

I'm perfectly willing to take Genesis as an allegory but I've pretty much rejected evolution. A zealous lack of skepticism by its defenders is probably my main cause of suspicion.

The theory's supporters have definitively claimed many things to be absolute truth which were later found to be false. They just nod their heads and continue on unphased.

My view is that God made the universe. How He did it and how He caused life to come about, I don't know.

23 posted on 07/16/2002 10:15:49 PM PDT by Tribune7
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To: Alamo-Girl
Marker, so I can try this in the morning, after coffee.
24 posted on 07/16/2002 10:17:17 PM PDT by general_re
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To: wallcrawlr; Alamo-Girl
Me too!

"And God said, let us make man in our image, in our likeness...."

These possessive pronouns that come through virtually all Biblical and Torah translations...as if there were some pact twixt God and humanity, in our being able to abstract information from our environment, and to derive meaning from it, even to affecting and altering it.

Note our being on the Moon, for example. And our presence via our machines and electromagnetic waves even into the interstellar medium. And our derivation of meaning from the receipt of radiation form across the deepest space and time....

As Roald Dahl said through Willy Wonka: "We are the music makers. And we are the dreamers of dreams."

25 posted on 07/16/2002 10:26:53 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: Orblivion
Here's more easy, and very blatant examples:

"So, in this blessed book is taught the duty of human sacrifice -- the sacrifice of babes. In the 22d chapter is this command: "Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits and of thy liquors: the first- born of thy sons thou shalt give unto me.""

Hmm, let's see, if he bothered to read the rest of the Bible he would notice that child sacrific is strictly forbidden (Moloch worship), and that the firstborns are "exchanged" for the Levites. All subsequent firstborns were redeemed monetarily...

"The book of Judges is about the same, nothing but war and bloodshed; the horrible story of Jael and Sisera; of Gideon and his trumpets and pitchers; of Jephtha and his daughter, whom he murdered to please Jehovah. "

OK, Sisera raped Yael 7 different ways, when he fell asleep she put a tent peg through his temple. Any objections? Gideon made a surprise attack in the night; he broke the pots and blew the trumpets to make the enemy think he had a larger force than he did. Jeptha didn't kill his daughter, see Radak - she went up to the mountains for a couple months, the Talmud says that such a vow is invalid, the Bible forbids human sacrifice, and the other opinion which says she died (Rashi) means that she didn't get married and have kids - he is citing the Midrash which explains that a person who doesn't have kids is considered "dead".

The whole article is like this; the author was a total ignoramous.

Ari

26 posted on 07/16/2002 10:29:33 PM PDT by Krafty123
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To: Ahban
The issue of why God "had to do it this way" instead of desinging a world that would use all evolution and just unfold is a separate lesson. If God is all knowing, why did He have to make the universe, then jump in later and make animals and man?

Just the question I have been asking for some time. IMHO, a creation that doesn't need "tweaking" from time-to-time is a greater creation than one that does.

27 posted on 07/16/2002 10:31:22 PM PDT by Scully
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To: PatrickHenry; RadioAstronomer; longshadow
FYI ping
28 posted on 07/16/2002 10:32:28 PM PDT by Scully
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To: Alamo-Girl
I believe that the universe and its contents were created as described in the Book of Genesis. I believe that *empirical* science backs up such a view, and points to a universe that's significantly younger than the first millions, then tens of millions, then hundreds of millions and now billions of years that evolutionists postulate. Supporting information is available on the internet from a series of creationist websites, the foremost of which is the Answers in Genesis site at http://www.answersingenesis.org

I do not believe in the Genesis Gap Theory, or the Day-Age interpretation of Genesis which holds each day of creation to be millions or billions of years long. Such attempts by Christians to reconcile what they would like to believe (John 3:16) with what they feel they must believe (the television and print pronouncements of atheistic scientists which conflict with Genesis) do a great disservice to the church.

As Ken Ham so eloquently states, "In evolution, through death came man. In Genesis, through man came death." Evolution is a system which depends on the births and deaths of countless creatures and manlike animals prior to the first steps of Homo Sapiens. Genesis is a record which states that prior to the transgression of Adam and Eve, there was no death on earth. The two points of view simply cannot coexist.
29 posted on 07/16/2002 10:33:19 PM PDT by applemac_g4
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To: AriOxman
OK, Sisera raped Yael 7 different ways, when he fell asleep she put a tent peg through his temple. Any objections?

Not from me.

30 posted on 07/16/2002 10:35:32 PM PDT by Scully
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To: applemac_g4
Well, R. Saadiah Gaon explained about 1100 years ago that the universe was created ~ 15.48 billion years ago.

Ari

31 posted on 07/16/2002 10:36:06 PM PDT by Krafty123
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To: Tribune7
Thank you so much for sharing your views!

On flaming, if I'm flamed for an error I made, then I will learn something I didn't previously know. And if I'm flamed wrongfully, it's a blessing and I can rejoice. Flaming is a win-win for me!

32 posted on 07/16/2002 10:37:15 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: AriOxman
Oh, boy. A scholar.

The physicist John Wheeler once said something like, "...Not an equation, but a principle, so simple, that we'll all say to each other, 'Oh. How beautiful. How could we ever thought it otherwise?'"

This should be fun.

33 posted on 07/16/2002 10:37:19 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: onedoug
Thank you so much for sharing your views! Hugs!!!
34 posted on 07/16/2002 10:41:49 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Alamo-Girl, if you are brave enough to join the never ending debate (read "slug-fest") concerning our origins, more power to you. None of the present-day posters were there, so you are on equal footing with everyone else. :)
35 posted on 07/16/2002 10:43:09 PM PDT by Scully
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To: applemac_g4
Thank you so very much for sharing your view of origins!
36 posted on 07/16/2002 10:44:38 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Alamo-Girl gives the forum new life with a long-overdue essay. Reading...
37 posted on 07/16/2002 10:44:44 PM PDT by Havisham
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To: onedoug
It is 11:38 p.m. here (Denver), and my Mother is sending me too sleep, so I have perhaps 20 more minutes here...

If anybody has any specific points that need to be addressed, pls do so quickly...

For what its worth, I only went to Yeshiva for 2.5 years (going to college this fall - Engineering Physics), so remember that I know only a fraction of those who could answer the harder stuff, but I don't see anybody else. My Rosh Yeshiva (dean) had an encyplodic grasp of the Tanach, Talmud, Zohar, with all their commentaries, as well as everything else, in addition to the sciences, literature, mathematics and the like. Standards have fallen.

Ari

38 posted on 07/16/2002 10:45:55 PM PDT by Krafty123
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To: Alamo-Girl
The Bible is the inerrant Word of God.
And God said, Let us make man in our image
Neither space nor time pre-exist... God alone was the observer of creation.

First, I noticed "inerrant" doesn't seem to be much of a constraint when you are free to substitute different words and meanings as needed to arrive at whatever conclusion you wish to arrive at.

However, if God really said "make man in our image", and since man has three spatial dimensions and also a time dimension -- it implies God too had those characteristics, and therefore space and time DID pre-exist.

Of course, as I say, if you can redefine "image" to mean whatever you want it to mean, then the claim of "inerrancy" is a pretty cheap coin.

39 posted on 07/16/2002 10:48:17 PM PDT by jlogajan
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To: Scully
One of the innate problems with a creation that doesn't need "tweaking" is that it is inherently deterministic. Free will gets obliterated.

Ari

40 posted on 07/16/2002 10:49:58 PM PDT by Krafty123
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